Away Boston Celtics Friday Dec 30 2011

Discussion in 'December 2011' started by roscoe36, Dec 29, 2011.

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Who wins?

Poll closed Dec 30, 2011.
  1. Detroit

    20.0%
  2. Boston

    80.0%
  1. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

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    I agree with some of this lee, I do believe we were killed with gm and JJ in but it was because of the backcourt we had with them not them. Stuck and BG with Tay and " our bigs" is an absolute train wreck. I would love the idea of Bk Broiler at point with Daye at the 2 JJ small gm power and Ben at the 5 to startand get maklin some pt at power and slide gm to center.
     
  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    No, we had more than one backcourt combo in with JJ in at power forward. Look, no situation where you advertise that you are going to start JJ at power forward will work, ever. JJ is in no way a power forward. When us fans started really, really liking JJ, it was when Tay was out for many months with injury, and JJ started at small forward. As a small forward, JJ is not ideal due to quicker small forwards being able to score on him - but as a small forward, he brings way more than the expected amount of rebounding from that position. As a power forward, his rebounding is only what is expected from a power forward, and no more. In other words, you take a valuable asset in JJ at small forward, and make him pretty much inconsequential as a power forward. And while some small forwards can outquick him, all NBA power forwards can out muscle him. The ideal situation is JJ coming off the bench as the backup small forward - where he guards the 2nd tier offensive small forwards while contributing excellent rebounding at that position.

    Meanwhile, I can not stress enough how much we need a player like Macklin, who only plays inside, vs a guy like CV who loves only outside play. Next game, CV is back, and you know if Dumars is having new coach not play Macklin right now, you know the orders will come in to play CV, regardless of reality, over Macklin.
     
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  3. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    I hate to blame it all on Lawrence Frank, because Weenie doesn't really have a lot of roster options. Basically, his potential bigs to partner with Monroe are Wallace, Maxiell, Jerebko, and Macklin. Wallace is an option, I suppose, but at this point in his career he's not going to offer much more than some shot blocking and rebounding off the bench. Maxiell is right out, obviously, which leaves Macklin. Now, I'm not an NBA coach, but I don't suspect that many coaches would just throw their rookie 2nd-rounder out onto the court and say "go bang with Garnett for 30 minutes." It's not like Macklin is in the wrong role - he's not playing any minutes at all. I would assume that Frank would throw him out there as soon as he feels he won't embarrass himself. That's kind of an indication that he's not ready.

    Basically, he's stuck with Jerebko. It's not ideal, but it's not Frank's fault, either - dude has to work with what he's got.
     
  4. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Again, as I said before, this looks like a bottom 5 team. But at least we can see a glimpse of the future. Knight, JJ and Monroe and next years top five pick.

    Monroe and JJ both need big man coaching around the hoop. Monroe was better tonight but is still limited. JJ has no moves around the hoop. But you could see a glimpse of how they might work together with their speed. Monroe can be used both cutting and at the high post. Monroe has indeed worked on the jumper.

    Knight's passing and shooting is already better than Stuckey and Bynum. Start him and play him big minutes. He looks better coupled with Gordon.

    The coach will have a hard time getting some mileage out of Stuckey. His game is hard to blend into this unit. And he still has much of the same holes in his game. Play him off the bench.

    The Pistons need to recognize that they are rebuilding and not pretend as they have when they brought in TMac last year. Knight and Gordon should start. Stuckey off the bench. Either Stuckey or Gordon need to be moved by next year as Knight will need a taller guard who can shoot and play defense for more than two minutes. Knight is the point guard NOW and in the future.

    You can see that Maxiel is overmatched. Ben should have retired. At this point, CV and Macklin should be brought in as bigs.

    I have never liked the idea of playing rookies much. But not now. Not when the team will lose a ton of games anyway.
     
  5. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    JJ could start - at small forward. With JMAX (or Ben Wallace) in with Monroe to provide strength inside. If you want a really good rebounding unit, go with Ben to start with JJ and Monroe. Younger - go with JMAX and Monroe. If you watched this particular game by the way, you would notice that the combination of JMAX and Monroe worked just fine. Monroe was able to check Garnett's length while JMAX had the door to the bucket firmly shut.

    In general, I like the pairing of JMAX and JJ as a pair of forwards. JMAX for the toughness, and JJ for the rebounding. But they need a center with length (which limits us to Macklin or Monroe at this point.) Just to make the thought complete, while CV represents some length himself, he has so little toughness, and so little inclination to play around the basket, that you just can't count him as an option if you care to ever win a game.
     
  6. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    FWIW, Jerebko did outscore and outrebound Garnett.
    The Pistons's "bigs" combined for 38 points on 15/23 shooting, and 18 boards; compared to 46 on 18/27 and 16 for the Celtics. That's not a huge difference, considering that the Pistons' strength is supposed to be their smalls. The problem was that Stuckey and Knight combined to shoot 4/22 with only 7 assists.

    Now I'm not saying that JJ is the answer at PF, but he's better than all their other options. This problem's on Dumars.
     
  7. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Stats are nice to quote - but did you watch the game. Did you see the absolute layup line Boston had going with JJ and Monroe in there helpless to stop it? Further, stats don't show this fact either: With no inside presence, our guards had to collapse in to help, leaving us very vulnerable outside. No, JJ is about the last option at power forward, because he has no size nor strength to be there. While neither JMAX (too little rebounding), nor Wallace (too old), is the best solution at power forward, for now we have to go with them. Because strength and toughness is a must in the NBA and these are our two strongest, toughest guys on the team. Macklin - he becomes the backup to Monroe - needing to play perhaps as little as 12 minutes while Monroe covers the other 36. Yes, Monroe can stay in there that long, without foul trouble, if he always plays with a tough inside player along side him, keeping him from having to play that role which he simply can't play.
     
  8. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    LA, we often don't agree on much, but we do agree that Stuckey should come off the bench. While not a point guard really, lots of teams have a flawed pointguard - as a backup.

    You may like Gordon. I can't see it. Neither of Daye nor Gordon will add much to the ball handling situation, but Daye will add to your rebounding and defense a lot more than Gordon will. Both can knock down the three. In all, I see Daye as a valuable NBA player, while Gordon is someone who we should find a way to send packing ASAP.
     
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    If JJ is not a PF, then holy crap do we have too many SF's. Neither Prince, Daye, Jerebko, nor Villanueva are good fits at the 4 spot. Monroe, Macklin, and Ben Wallace probably are though... with Maxiell being next. So, it's hard to blame the coach for putting our best fitting SF at PF when all of our PF's are asked to pretend to be centers.

    Face it, we don't have a center and it's not clear that we have a point guard. 2 pretty important positions. Hopefully Knight will fill one of those, but it will be a while before we know.
     
  10. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I couldn't believe how many wide open jumpers the Pistons gave up where the Celtics were just slowly stepping into them. The 3rd Q especially. They are bad.

    Is it possible that John Kuester was a master technician who brought an impossible to mesh group together by giving them the common goal of hating him? These guys are decidedly worse, aren't they?

    I am watching the Clips/Bulls game and it looks like a different sport. I wouldn't blame Gores if he went to this game instead.

    I bet the C's face a stiffer defense in practice..

    Rod Stuckey is shooting 10-34 on the year for 29%. He'd be shooting in single digits if they did not subtract his misses when he got fouled from the total. He is not missing those shots because he is getting fouled.
     
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Compare our current big men to the 2004 Championship team:

    Ben Wallace at his peak
    Rasheed Wallace close to his peak
    Memhet Okur
    Elden Campbell
    Z Rebraca
    D Milicic
    Corliss Williamson
    Ham Slamwich

    That was awesome. That team had defensive bigs, outside scoring threats, incredible post skills, enforcers, bench warmers, busts, you name it.

    And the PG's:
    Billups at his peak
    Mike James
    Chucky Atkins
    Lindsey Hunter
    Bobby Sura

    At true SF, it was basically just Tay and at true SG, basically Rip. That team was loaded at the positions that we are now missing.
     
  12. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I can't believe what I'm about to type, but they should start Charlie G at PF. He's a 4 and JJ can play the 3 or 4 off the bench as the 1st sub.

    The Celtics halftime folks were mocking the Pistons calling them horrible and saying that either a D League team or the D team can beat them. They were laughing at them also.

    I would estimate that Rondo pushes the ball upcourt 80% of the time he is given the ball. Rod Stuckey likes to talk about running the ball a lot.
     
  13. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Hi Lee. Gordon has been a BIG disappointment to me. Who else is there to play next to Knight? I never bought into the Bynum hysteria and I think I remember that you too are not a Bynum fan. I guess I am not that confident in Daye. He looks lost at times but it is already his third year. Yes, he brings some rebounding and defense here and there and yes, his ball handling is poor. I am not sure where and if he fits. He has that nice shot but notice how they are jumping out at him now. The league scouts you quick and they want him to put the ball on the floor. I would never say never to a guy with a shot but how do you use Daye with the notion that he is a poor ball handler. Catch and shoot? Off screens?

    I would imagine that either Gordon or Stuckey would be traded by next year. You might get your wish. Knight will undoubtedly be the main guard and the Pistons need to find someone compatible with him.
     
  14. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Ernie, I can't believe what I am going to type, I would play CV some at center. He is pretty big and he is slow and he can take up some space. On offense, you could bring him outside and let him shoot jumpers as the opposing center wouldn't want to come out on him. Hey, Frank will have to get creative with this roster.

    But I did like the beginning of some hope on offense with JJ and Monroe slicing across the key and using their relative speed. Monroe is slow but not slow for the center position. Opposing teams beat you down low with bulk, you make them pay with speed. The problem is these guys (Monroe and JJ) are just out of their rookie years and do not have a range of moves developed yet. In a couple of years, I think they will be a handful once they find their game. And Knight will be all over the court feeding them and popping threes himself.
     
  15. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    yeah it pains me to say this but we have a better chance at winning with CV starting instead of jerebko...jerebko should be an energy guy off the bench, not checking 4s in this league. or put him at 3 and let tay come off the bench since he's apparently decided to take the year off
     
  16. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    I can't believe I'm going to type this, but...

    I agree with this. I think it may be suspension colored glasses though. I may change my mind the minute Charlie Allstar hits the floor.
     
  17. alexa032

    alexa032 Team Captain

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    I'm going to agree with that too. The team could certainly use the scoring punch, and he's at least stronger. If he stinks up the place I'll probably hate on his play again, but right now I can't see a much better alternative.
     
  18. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    The frontcourt of Nique Jr, JMax and Wallace may be the worst offensive frontcourt in NBA history. That crew would have been butchered in the D-league. JMax could probably be substituted for a 260 lbs sack of potatoes and neither the defense nor offense would suffer.
     
  19. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    To top it off, Frank decides to throw rookie PG in there with only BG as a guy you can even think about passing the ball to. Earlier in the game, he stuck Knight out there with Daye, JJ, Max, and Wilkins for a good 5 minutes. REALLY?! You've gotta give the rook something to work with.

    I really hope Frank is just messing with lineups, and is quickly eliminating some of these awful combinations.

    I also wonder sometimes when I'm watching the game why we so easily go away from what is working. Monroe had a stretch there where he was making plays offensively every time down the floor. Then all of a sudden they completely abandoned it. I could understand if he were just getting his own offense, but he was setting everyone up. Considering we don't really have a PG (Knight is still a ways away), you'd think Frank would want to take advantage of that.

    I'm starting to lean toward starting Knight, BG, Prince, Monroe, Wallace at this point given how bad our 2nd unit is on both ends of the floor. Stuckey was awful tonight, but he's really the one guy who has a decent chance at carrying the load for that bench crew. Starting Big Ben gives Monroe a break from having to always guard the most physical guy on the floor, and evens out the lineups a bit.
     
  20. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I don't think you could play him at C. He's too much of a liability there and the Pistons would never play fast enough to take advantage of what he could give you there.

    The Pistons ran a great play early where JJ scored curling across the lane for a layup.

    You're probably making some sense here. Maybe this is the way to go. It does seem like any way they go they lose.

    I'm really starting to think that there was more to Kuester than we saw. He had them all going in the same direction.
     

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