Billups vs. Iverson

I fail to see that. Weaker conference + healthy nene over camby. YET They are still a 50-win team and not contenders.

All good PGs make the team better. PGs are similar to a QB of the NFL.

A. The West is still stronger.
B. Camby was the only player who played defense better, but not Chauncey has coached them to play it as well.
C. They are not contenders...but are still competitive.

They have to win a playoff series. Just one, under George Karl, and then I'll say the deal worked out in Denver's favor.

I really think that the Nuggets have given Chauncey the right to totally revamp the way that they play their game. AI hasn't been given this opportunity, just look at his numbers. I'm just saying that the Pistons should make changes to fit AI, instead of AI having to make all of the changes to fit the Pistons. As for me, I blame Michael Curry MUCH more than AI.

I agree 100%. I've been saying for a while now that they should sign some hunch backs so they can field all the passes he throws at people's feet.

Nice Pass!

We should just close this thread. It's obvious who the winner is/was (pun intended). And no one is going to admit that they were wrong about the trade.

Cap space till the end!!

<this post is a result of the crap i am now forced to watch that is allegedly the Pistons>

Yeah, I just read this thread because I'm closely following both the Nuggets and the Pistons this year. I don't have a lot of time now to type out big proofs, but I thought I'd throw in my views into the mix.

1. Chauncey Billups was not on the team when the Nuggets decided to change their stripes and become a defensive type team. The decision was made by some combination of the managment and George Karl. Chauncey is running the offense, George Karl is running the defense, much as I dislike to admit that Karl is doing anything that is good.

2. The Nuggets indeed are most likely not going to win a playoff series, because they have some no name players who will be road kill against high quality, experienced players in the playoffs. The Nuggets are the type of franchise which is happy just to win in the regular season, they truly not very concerned about the playoffs.

So when all is said and done, who cares how wonderful a leader Chauncey Billups is? Actually, he's not such a great motivator; he just has a very high IQ and leads as the offensive coach so to speak. Karl doesn't know much of anything about effective basketball offense, so Chauncey is making up for that.

3. Nene, Chris Andersen, Renaldo Balkman, and Chauncey are the big upside surprises for the Nuggets, not just Chauncey alone.

4. Every week somewhere on the internet I read another argument about Allen Iverson. There have to be more arguments about him than about any other player.

I havn't seen them here much, but there are a lot of Iverson haters, posters who hardly try to hide how their hatred is driving their statements rather than the other way around. The haters don't really care what the real facts are.

Everyone is at least slightly confused about AI; no one is really sure of what they are saying. The AI Puzzle is: how can a Hall of Fame player be a player who makes your team worse? This doesn't make any sense.

The answer goes way, way back in time, just like any good drama or horror movie mystery.

The answer, which Star Jones apparently has realized, (and out of hundreds and hundreds of articles and posts I've never until now seen anyone other than me blame Larry Brown) is that Iverson was coached incorrectly by Larry Brown, the only American Coach who screwed up the Olympics.

I thank Star Jones for giving me a new clue I didn't have before, which is that Brown's problem may be that he doesn't much like coaching very talented players.

Iverson was always a PG in high school, college, and in his rookie of the year season. But when Larry Brown came along, he stuffed Iverson into the 2-guard slot and told him to shoot as much as he wanted because he could not stand the idea of having him as PG, because he wanted to have a lot of control over the offense and he knew Iverson wouldn't do what he wanted.

There is no evidence that Brown thought that Iverson would shoot so well at 2-guard that it would be a net plus for the 76'ers, which means he had ulterior motives. Brown messed up, pure and simple.

You have to understand that back in those days Iverson was immature and did in fact want things mostly his way, and Brown didn't know how to react other than to move Iverson to a new position, because he had to maintain control over the offense through his PG and he knew Iverson would not follow all his demands.

In general, Iverson and Brown could not stand each other in the first few years, and they fought on the sidelines, in the lockerroom, and even in the newspapers.

Ever since, Iverson has been a combo guard, playing both guard positions at the same time, which is why teammates are confused and can't score as well as they can with the regular 1 and regular 2 guard. He plays combo all the time, but even after Brown left the 76'ers, Iverson was often designated 2-guard, which offensively is confusing and defensively is a joke, because now you have two short guards when in basketball you can only afford one at a time. Iverson is only 6 foot tall if you stretch it folks. Since when does someone that short play any other postion other than PG, and hell, even PGs are generally taller than that.

Pistons fans have called having two small guards "small ball," which everyone has realized is a disaster, especially for a defensive minded team.

Bottom line: Iverson never should have been moved from 1-guard to 2-guard, because he became a two position oddity that confuses the hell out of everyone to this day. And so you have these endless internet discussions about Iverson this and Iverson that and Iverson the other thing.

You see, some decisions can change the future, either for the better or the worse. It seems to me that the Brown decison regarding Iverson changed history for the worse. But real life is not like "LOST," we can't go back in time and change things.

That's all I have time for now, I'll try to come here more often.

We disagree on what Billups meant to this team so when i measure who won the trade, i inevitably include what this team would like IMO with CB so it's kinda a double negative. Also i'll leave the average post-season player alone for the sake of conserving space.

However, even without that i think you can call DEN the winner. Whether or not it results in the WCF or a championship for DEN, the trade has reinvigorated their franchise, and put them in a good spot to be a good team for a long time and add pieces along the way. On our side, the trade has really broken the team, and left us floundering as to what to do next and reliant on cap space that is no shape or form going to garauntee landing a "superstar".

I am not optimistic about the cap space because i don't think it's going to turn into a true max player. It will either result in us overpaying someone or hopefully being smart with the money which i doubt because the fan sentiment will be where's our "superstar" ? I guess you can call that pre-mature judge of the situation, but i don't think it's a reach to say that Wade,LBJ,etc. are not coming here. And until 2010, and especially if Curry is retained, it looks like it's going to be extremely painful to watch.

Flip Saunders ?

I don't see what's not to be optimistic about. They have Melo, CB, a young big Nene, and a SG with major potential in Smith. The only real hindrance is GK's style which they don't always play to begin with.

Irreparably damaged? No. Done as title contenders for the next few years? Yes. Joe D's moves don't inspire optimism. It doesn't mean i can't enjoy the young players or that even the team in the next few years, but my expectations are low.

Well Billups makes hes teammates better.. Ai is an egomaniac gangster wannabee who thinks only of he's stats.. Look at the record of the nuggets b4 and after trading AI with hes gangster, streetball style...

Your right!!...AI has made millions and millions of dollars in this league and he's still jacking up 30 shots a night in Det because he "thinks only of he's stats".....He's already a first ballot hall of famer but it's obvious he still only cares about stats...Maybe if AI wasn't shooting the ball 30 times there would be some shots left for kb and amir...what a selfish bum!!!

Also, Curry reportedly memorized it.

I didnt read one post in this entire thread, but if anyone THINKS ISNT AMONG THE TOP 3 WORST TRADES (cap space availability not withstanding) iN piston history, not only are you NOT a BASKETBALL fan , u are definetly NOT a PISTON fan!

Free the BANS, roscoe!! Free the BANS!!!!

or maybe

:banplease