Atlanta Hawks Feb. 11th, 7:30 PM

Discussion in 'February 2009' started by Dlev59, Feb 6, 2009.

  1. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Actually, if I was ablaze, I guess being in water with ice would sound pretty good. Also, the water would probably dampen the death rattle sound a bit.

    Could do without the razor blades or course.
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    The strange thing lap, is that Maxie has totally outplayed Amir so far. Except his absolutely horrendous defensive rebounding and somewhat spotty free throw shooting, Max plays with ferociousness to match Amir's intensity, he's a much more capable scorer, and defensively can be very effective.

    It's so hard to judge any of these guys under the current circumstances because the coach seems to be contributing more to their challenges than their success.

    I don't blame fans for being excited about Amir, but like Darko, you reach a point where you have to admit that maybe he isn't going to ascend to the heights you thought he was. I personally reached that point last season.

    Now if he soars, then I will gladly admit I was wrong and don't know a darn thing about player evaluation.

    As an aside, the Amir fan club doesn't bother me. I think it's healthy as long as it doesn't become a clique. I thought the Darko Hall of Fame club was an awesome forum meme. What does sometimes bum me out, is the AI hate club, the Ben Wallace hate club (which was pretty much just bball jay :laugh:) etc. It's one thing to be down on a prospect, or a scrub, or some 9th man like Jarvis Hayes or Carlos Delfino. But your all-star, record book, once in a lifetime starters? I just can't feel the hate personally.
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I stopped listening to Pantera after Great Southern Trendkill, but they have a song on the album after that called Death Rattle which is pretty good.

    I also think Metallica has a song about being trapped under ice from the pre-Black Album days.

    Maybe Cloud is a metal fan like me.
  4. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    "Trapped Under Ice" is on Ride the Lightening I believe.
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    How do you measure the worth of a defensive specialist who doesn't do much scoring? Clearly ranking players by their foul rate alone does not do it. Is it so infinitely complicated that you have to rely purely on personal judgment? And if that is the case, should we rely on a fan's judgment, or trust the coaching staff?

    I don't see why it is unreasonable to look at something simple like point spread with that player on the floor compared to point spread without him. Is this a super convoluted system? After all, it works to identify the best players on every single other team in the league. And on our team, it shows that Sheed is the most valuable, followed by Amir, Iverson, and Prince. Do any of the other guys on that list need to be reordered to fit your perception of them.

    When you have an exception so glaring, as this must be to anyone who thinks he is a bad player, then I would think that it would be easy to show why this correlation is bunk. I don't need someone to prove he's a bad player, just show how this simple measure is flawed.

    I was looking at previous years' +/- rankings (2004) and the analyst was showing the top 20 results. All of the guys on the list matched with what common sense told him were guys that should have been there; Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Garnett, Nowitzki, Shaq, Duncan, Sheed, etc. However, he went on to say this:

    At that point, Nene and Foster hadn't established their reputations. It turns out in hindsight that the stat was pointing out value that few saw. Now, Nene leads the Nuggest in production, +/-, and is the only player on the team that when he's sitting, they get outscored by a significant margin. Despite Mello and Chaunce, Nene might be their MVP.
  6. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Had to bring him into this eh? :help2:
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Sorry brother. No hard feelings.
  8. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    None taken. :rockon:
  9. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    This photo is scary. First, Jackie Chan is like 5' 6" or something. No way Amir is taller than 6'9". 2nd, the cat is skinny. Remember Darko when he came into the league? Look at him now. Amir is built like Prince, how the heck is he supposed to play PF?
  10. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    Good times, good times...
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    He's really built for a running game. And without the offensive skills, but with the athleticism, we would probably get the most value out of him trading him to a running team, if we determined that he wasn't fitting in here.
  12. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    That is the way most of the kids are built nowadays. The are built for speed and jumping; not for banging and bullying.

    When I watch the Celts and see Perkins and Big Baby on the floor the look so out of place. Although with the age of the rest of the team they can play a slow tempo pound the paint game with those guys and win.

    Sometimes I think our problem is we have too much variation on our roster. The young guys want to run and the old guys can't. The young guys are too small to play a slow pounding style and the vets can't keep up with the youngin's.

    It's almost like we can't court a full squad that can play the same style effectively. Kinda goes back to the Rip/AI scenario.

    We start AI, Stuck and Amir that are all better at getting up and down the floor but we combine them with Sheed and Prince that want to slow things down and try and pound the air out of the ball on isolations.

    Then we turn around and bring in the second unit guys of AA and Max that are better running but we pair them with Rip, Dice and sometimes Kwame that are better off playing set up.

    My whole problem with our line ups is MC doesn't put the right pieces together.

    When I look at the squad that Boston puts on the floor you can see they all want and need to play the same style. Their ages and builds beg for them to play a slow style of ball and out-execute the opposition.

    When I look at Cleveland they have Bron along with Williams, Wally and Ben that want to get up and down the floor together. Then Varejo and Gibson too that need to run.

    These teams have a style of play that fits their roster OR they have a roster that fits their style of play. Chicken or the egg; but we are still out in the pasture.
  13. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Bottom line is it looks good on paper, but this mix of players and coaches is just a .500 team...It may have been a .575 team with CB starting and Stuckey as his backup...... A .575 that was probably going as far as the second round and joe probably realize that thinking that AI could get them at least back to the conference finals and and maaaaybbbeee to the finals....But he forgot that he had a rookie coach and a bench that still didn't have enough miles on their tires to get the chemistry to mesh right with the old slow vets.:lecturer:
  14. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I agree with this. That's why I thought it might be a creative idea to have a bench with a completely different playing style. Start all the vets and then sub in a running lineup to take the game up tempo. If the other team tries to leave their good players out there, at least we are going to tire them out a bit for our vets to finish them off at the end.

    It would be hard for teams to plan against us.
  15. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    While I agree with this in theory let's not forget that Curry has been unable to coach even one style of play.
  16. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    i dunno, but clearly you're not calling amir a defensive specialist are you?
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Personal Foul Specialist.

    AI is the Low Pass Coordinator. Tayshaun is the Pump Fake Expert.

    Rasheed is the leader of both the dance and debate teams.
  18. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    @TaShawn, Detteam, Delfino Delivers: running and gunning style "negates" defensive game. That's why good D teams prefer lower pace although they might run and gun as well.

    Small ball emphasized running and gunning ( sort of) and we know results.
  19. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    The Spurs actually find a way to do both. Their style is interesting. They can play both ways; sometimes in different quarters of the same game.
  20. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    Amir is not Duncan, Arron is not Ginobili and AI is not Parker.

    three allstars vs one overdue allstar and 2 bench players.

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