At Washington Wizards Dec. 9th 7:00 PM

Discussion in 'December 2008' started by Dlev59, Dec 4, 2008.

  1. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    This game was lost because they couldn't defend without fouling. Maybe that's because they were over matched from small ball, maybe it's because they just aren't very good defensively, either individually or collectively.
  2. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    Maybe key players have lost a step...or 5.
  3. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    "That was our best unit out there, but they start getting into it with the officials and (the Wizards) wound up being a plus-11," coach Michael Curry said. "That group is too good for anybody to be plus-11 on them in a four-minute stretch."
    [/quote]

    So Curry is looking at the +/- reports... good to know. Not sure why he's messing with Amir though.
  4. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Small ball did not get us the lead to start the game - Rasheed Wallace abusing their rookie center got us the initial lead. Later, to end the first quarter, we had Afflalo out there and indeed small ball added 9 points to the lead. Did you notice by the way that with Afflalo out there instead of Stuckey just how well we were running for a spell there. Sure, you probably missed it. But within that, Washington started attacking our middle. I thought as a team, Washington was real slow to start doing this, but they did. Then, Herrmann played the whole 4th, and the entire lead, save 2 points went away. A lot of that was attacking Herrmann directly. Here, you claim to know what was going on from your one viewing, so can you tell me how many times they attacked Herrmann in that quarter? If you don't know, and I highly doubt you do, go look at the film. Of course, if you want to insist you are all that and don't need to double check your observations, hey, its still nice to hear your "impressions" of the game.

    Now, as for your understanding a simple concept of having balance out there on defense, I don't want to insult you too much further. lol Lets just say if you took the 5 biggest players in the league, that probably would not work for a unit. There are a myriad of chores for a defense to get done, some of which require speed. I'll be glad to explain further if you can't grasp the concept by yourself. lol

    One more thing, your basketball IQ is what it is. From what I can see, there is no correlation at all between someone's overall intellignece and their basketball IQ. If I somehow insulted your intelligence, I apologise. But as far as your basketball IQ, I don't see it from what you are writing in your posts.
  5. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I might have been willing to suggest you knew something if upon Sheed's 1st 7pt surge to start the game was immediatly illiminated by WAS. But, of course that wasn't the case. So, according your logic, the Wiz took off on us after we went up 7....however, since you've watched the film 68 times...I'm quite sure you saw that same unit add to that lead and an continuation of it push the lead to 17.

    Sure guy...if you want to suggest that relentlessly attacking a guy who played a grand total of 13 out of 48 minutes was enough to win them the game. Feel free pal. Apparently watching that same 13 minutes 3 times has given you the reason for the 48 minute result. Feel freel pal. I'm not going to continue a useless debate with you over a guy who doesn't matter. I'm sure your crazy Walter Rants and railing for more time for players who themselves aren't making a difference is surely what Joe D and Bill D look for when they decide what they should do to please the fans. No matter how much noise you or any group of fans make the Pistons organization will NEVER respond by doing what you want. Enjoy buddy...lol

    I'm sure there are some people who, if you had said this to them, would like to respond to you on this matter, but having you suggest to me that I can't grasp a concept only makes my short vacation better. I get more laughs.

    1st, I could suggest a course in reading comprehension for you, but that doesn't involve film so I doubt you'd "grasp the concepts." Using the word "AND" thus separates my intelligence AND basketball IQ into two distinct and separate entities which then were both, figuratively speaking, insulted. However, I'm willing to bet that if I had suggested that you insulted my intelligence and my Walter Hermann, you would have understood that.

    ..and this is from the guy who spent a full season touting Victor Alexander's "Swan Shots?"

    I chuckle at thee.
  6. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    Damn


    Is Low gone?
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I don't understand the Q Dlev.
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    Low, Lee - why are you guys making things difficult?
  9. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Wasn't this game over 48 hours ago?? Or are we adding Celtcs vs Wizard to the thread?

    The game is not over yet, but how bad are we if the C's beat the Wiz by 25? They are up 36-21 at the end of 1 and getting all the calls...

    Lets hope the Pistons are watching this game and studying the Celtics defense instead of somewhere practicing..
  10. max

    max All-Star

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    Thinks they are going to let them back in? Stage that daunting 3rd Q comeback that one would expect from a last place team.
  11. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    I will try to keep this to basketball, best I can. In the end, it does not really matter which of us knows more than the other about basketball, its the ideas we exchange that count. I apologize for any contribution to any hard feelings on your part. There are none on mine.

    First, I only watched this one twice. No, we did not use the same unit for the whole first quarter. Stuckey only played half the quarter. Afflalo played the other half.

    We opened the quarter leading 11-3, with 9 of our points scored by Sheed. McGee was pulled from the game. The lead did not change over the next couple of minutes. Afflalo entered the game for Stuckey, and darn we looked good for the next several minutes. With Afflalo in the game, indeed small ball looked like it could work just fine. We were fast breaking very well, and we ended the quarter with a 29-14 lead. Afflalo, even in a small ball unit, seems to add enough toughness and defensive skill to make the defense work. But even within that excellent first quarter of defense, Washington started trying to establish an inside game. It was not working mind you, but they were trying. Without a pair of jumpers from Young, that would have been just a nine point quarter for Washington.

    To start the 4th quarter, both Afflalo and Herrmann were in the game. The lead did not change signifiicantly for the next several minutes. Washington continued to try to go inside.

    Affalo came out of the game, but Herrmann stayed in, for the last 4 minutes of the half. All but 2 points of the lead evaporated at that time. The guys on the floor for the bulk of that time were AI, Rip, Tay, Herrmann, and Sheed. (Sheed replaced Dyess with 3 minutes to go in the half.) During this 4 minutes, Washington chose to attack Herrmann nearly every time down. They would either go directly at him, or use the old trick of running a play right our in front of him, knowing that he could not actually cover any distance to bother the play.

    For the 2nd quarter as a whole, Herrmann's complete lack of interior D contributed to Washington going inside too easily, and in the last 4 minutes, his lack of individual defensive capabilities was exploited by Washington.

    Other than the whole 2nd quarter, Herrmann just played one minute further, when we were way down with a minute to go in the game; Herrmann was brought in to shoot 3's.

    Now the 3rd quarter. Can't blame this one on Herrmann, he did not play this quarter. Washington just kept going inside. And kept going inside. They put a major run on us, until finally, Curry put in both Dyess and Sheed at the same time to stop it, starting at the beginning of the 4th quarter. How bad was it? Washington put a 17-2 run on us. And yes, this was pretty much all against our starting unit, save Dyess was in there for Sheed for most of it. And all was played with Tay at power forward. And most with Rip at small forward.

    How did small ball cost us the game)

    1)Washington continually probed our middle thruout the game, and got on one major roll on scoring from going inside on us, which we never stopped at all until the start of the 4th quarter.

    2) Using Herrmann at power forward in particular as part of small ball cost us a lot of easily given up points to Washington, particularly as we lost pretty much all of a good lead in a 4 minute stretch where we let Washington attack the guy.

    3)Tay started out getting a bunch of rebounds, 6 of them, but that was all in the first three minutes of the game or so with their rookie center in. After that, Tay got hardly any boards until right at the end of the game and they were rather meaningless by then as we were trying to make a comeback. In other words, as we gave all our lead up, and as they went way ahead of us, Tay was getting no boards. This is what you can expect from Tay playing power forward, a position for which he does not have enough bulk.

    Here are some questions. Could we have won this game never using anyone bigger than Tay at power forward? It is possible, but not if Herrmann is that other guy. Maybe if Walter Sharpe had played the 2nd quarter instead, it would have been good enough. Washington is one extremely weak team. But the more important question, could we beat Washington in a playoff series. No way. We maybe win one game. But after that, Washington learns we will not defend the middle, and they would win it in a five game series.

    When did we look the best? I'd say with the unit of AI, Afflalo, Rip, Tay, Sheed, which we used for several minutes in the first quarter. Afflalo could check Butler, something Rip could not do. Tay was guarding Jamison just fine. Offensively, this unit was absolutely cooking, running fast breaks to near perfection. (Well, if you can accept Rip ending them with pull up jumpers, which I will as long as he keeps canning them all.) But could this unit have held up to the more persistant inside attack Washington employed in the 2nd half? Questionable, but Affallo is one tough defender. Its possible. But, no, I don't think even Afflalo is that good. With no actual power forward to rotate well to close down the middle, just maybe we could win one game like that, but not a series.
  12. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Nah, BOS lucked into that win. It's sickening how the league caters to them, but their arrogance will kill them. They didn't even change their starting line-up to match up with them. That might win a game in December, but not when they count.
  13. aurora

    aurora Bench Warmer

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    I think you are dead wrong. I watched every single game he played in Denver and A.I. was NOT the problem on Denver's team and I don't believe for a second that he is THE problem on this team. This team has had problems for years now. To pin it all on this trade is just to do the usual ritual of blaming someone so you can pour your frustrations into him instead of considering all the other contributing options. And there are alot of them. A.I. is trying to do what is asked of him. The fact that this new rookie coach doesn't know how to use him yet is not A.I.'s fault.

    For crying out loud.
  14. The Palace Artest

    The Palace Artest First Round Draft Pick

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    If you were here that day you would see that I was blaming Curry ahead of everyone, so I apologize if it looked like I made it to be all Iverson's fault. But on the flip side there are members (as well as Pistons fans everywhere) who attribute zero blame onto Iverson.

    AI has proven to be largely a non-factor (its actually Sheed's success that more instrumental to team success), and this irks fans when people like me comment on it, because we are supposed to be defending our Pistons. An adjustment period isn't supposed to be this rocky. There hasn't been a lick of progress since that Lakers game.

    Rip and Tay are consistent, win or lose. The only inconsistency is Iversons shot, and Rasheed (which we have known). When Iversons shot isn't falling, those 13 FGA are empty and his whole game suffers. In fact, the team's game suffers. Of course some people will just use this as a way to show that the team needs AI and he should be used "properly". I'm not just pinning "all the frustrations" onto him. I'm being observant, and having two wildly inconsistant players is the reciple for a roller-coaster, and one of those guys happened to replace our PG.

    Some people here just think that I get a kick out of "hating on Iverson." However, THIS game never really had a chance. Iverson shot well, and everyone else shot well, but we lost right when the WAS coach made the adjust to Curry's idiotic rotation. I've blamed Curry for the most part.
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    AI seems to be sacrificing stats in a contract year, so that's a good sign. He's played very well in stretches, the LA games comes to mind. But it's so strange to have a "superstar" finally while losing to bad teams.
  16. aurora

    aurora Bench Warmer

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    Palace Artest, I don't know whether you are an A.I. hater or not. I got caught up on defending Ben Wallace from sime die-hard Ben Haters on this forum and don't intend to make the same mistake twice.

    There is a certain edge to your words about A.I. that keeps showing up that leads me to think that you resent him. The shot about the image maintaining etc, and the suggestion that he doesn't care about his teams.

    Anyway I'm done. And as you have probably already ascertained I adore A.I. To the extreme. So sometimes I'm a little sensitive to what I consider to be cheap shots. You want to talk basketball, fine. You want to say that all he cares about is his star power and he's some kind of rogue celebrity operator, I gotta knock that down lest it catch fire on this forum. The Ben thing got out of control and I STILL monitor that issue. LOL.
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Here's the root of the problem. AI is a HOF player and 3rd on the all-time ppg list, but except for 1 year, his teams have not done well in the post season. Since he's such a great player, people start to wonder why this pattern has been established.

    Possible reasons:
    - bad luck
    - his teammates have been below average
    - his defense is a weakness than most fans don't notice
    - his style of play makes it difficult for non role players to mesh with him
    - he's a SG in a PG's body
    - he gets so many shots that other players can't get into a rhythm
    - he doesn't pace himself and gets banged up toward the end of seasons
    - he's not a natural leader and b/c he's the best player on the team, other leaders defer to him
    - a combination of some or all of these things.

    Besides his weird casino incidents and the whole refusal to come off the bench in Philly and his occasional no-shows at pratice, I think he's a really sincere, passionate player that's hard not to like. Doesn't mean that there isn't a real reason why he hasn't enjoyed the success you'd think he would.
  18. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    No, I've learned not to take anything, as far as forums/online discussions go, so seriously that I develop hard feelings. It's not that deep, so honestly I don't think there's any reason to apologize there. This entire experience is supposed to be fun for people, so I can't really get so wrapped up in it that I get upset or angry at other posters.

    I just don't think there's anyway that a guy who plays less than 15mpg could ever be taken seriously as a threat to the overall outcome of the game. IMO...anybody's minutes can be used to determine one of 1000 "reasons" why a game was won or lost. For my money, the "small ball" and/or "Walter Hermann defense" issue is a non issue for me. So, I really can't continue debating the point because I don't see one. This team has deeper more all encompassing problems that would have a larger effect on their overall success in my opinion, so I have to consider what could be done to solve THOSE issues.
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Man, I love you guys.
  20. aurora

    aurora Bench Warmer

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    Wow! This is a very impressive and all-encompassing list. I'd have to go with "a combination of some or all of these things" and as I've stated above, AI is my favorite player. But it's really hard to pick just one as the reason his championship hopes still go unfulfilled. I don't know about Philly, but in the case of Denver, I'd have to eliminate #2, #4, #5, #6.

    If I have to choose one of these I'd say #8. As great as AI is, I think he isn't a natural alpha dog (as opposed to say KG's Celtics example). And much as I didn't care for Chauncey, it looks like we lost our alpha dog for the Pistons pack with trading him.

    So...we need an alpha leader for our team. Any ideas? For trading another starter for a seriously intense leader. How many of those guys can there be? And what would they cost?

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