At Toronto Raptors March 13th, 7:00 PM

Discussion in 'March 2009' started by Dlev59, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Which i responded to. Dwight Howard's size alone makes him worth the risk in terms of his fragile mental state. Whether you believe Dwight has it "easy" or not; he is still more effective than Bosh and far more worthy of being a max player.

    YVMV. If we're going to max someone out, i prefer it to actually be someone who is a "franchise player" and is effective on both sides of the floor. LBJ is not a bad defender, Kobe isn't, Duncan isn't Pierce isn't, KG isn't, Wade isn't, those are all players worth the max. Bosh is putting up these numbers and his team sucks. Kaman put up similar numbers and he's not worth that type of money either. There's 20/10 and then there's 20/10 that affects/can take over a game.
    It absolutely is. Aldridge has no problem owning Sheed and neither do other young bigs. Bosh's problem runs far deeper than just facing a "cagey" veteran. He choked in the NJ series as well. And i don't think anyone's about to wax poetic about NJ's big men. Like mentioned, he didn't even try to really post up tonight. In fact his bricking was responsible for our 3rd quarter lead. It's also a little scary how a second year players (LMA's) post game is comparable to his at this stage.
    Bosh doesn't deserve the max. It's my opinion. I don't believe Boozer deserves it either. If we're not getting a "superstar", then i'd rather we go for quality than just another big name. I don't mind Bosh as much as i mind his price tag. If someone wants to go out and give him 100 mil, go for it. I just hope it isn't us.
     
  2. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm not ready to concede this point yet.

    These other guys aren't whooping on Bosh by being cagey, they're overpowering and overwhelming him. I would include Howard in this also though. Don't come into the superstar club if you can't afford the cover.
     
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Thanks for the research.

    Dwight's entire game is based on physical dominance. Bosh has built out his body heaps, but he has a finesse game. He doesn't have to worry about someone bigger coming along and outmuscling him. The only reason Shaq was dominant so long, is that he was the bigger MFer in the NBA for a decade. Howard won't be so lucky. He's not that big, and next year, or 4 years from now, someone will come into the league and treat him like a little brother the way Sheed does, but with power, not finesse.

    We're not going to max anyone out. If someone comes to Detroit, it's because Joe will convince that player it is in their best interest. The NBA is facing a major contraction. The money is going to dry up. Guys on mid-level deals will prevent the big players from getting paid, and teams will bring in cheap talent to balance out their lineups.

    At 24, Sheed wasn't even a regular starter.

    Do you even realize how few NBA PFs post up anymore? Guys are more likely to be Dirk Nowitzki then Shaquille O'Neal. Even Yao Ming is more Dirk than Shaq. That's how the league is. The post up argument is so played out. Bob Lanier is retired!

    And his clutch play took us to OT.

    Amir Johnson didn't deserve $3 million, but Joe took a chance and paid him, hoping the production would come.

    With Bosh, we already know we get a 20+9 guy going into his prime. You're paying more, but you know you are getting more. The days of big man by committee are coming to an end. I don't think Dice and Sheed will be back next year, at least one if not both will be gone, and no one in their right mind is going to field an Amir/Max + Kwame lineup.

    Personally, I don't care. I just can't stand talent evaluations that cut one way, but no one wants to acknowledge they cut the other way. Dice is too old, except when he outplays all 3 of our guys under age 25. Walt is no good, but somehow he does just enough that we don't lose games. Sheed is a bum for not going in the post, but he's our best lockdown defender.

    When Sheed retires, Dwight Howard will send him a dozen roses. Then he will go back to feasting on the Joakim Noahs and Kendrick Perkins of the NBA.
     
  4. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    ^
    I don't want to get in a debate with you about this either so Ok.
     
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    There is always one...

    I think I have Bosh on one of 3 or 4 fantasy teams. I don't own a TV, and I don't follow the Raptors. But the guy is a helluva player from what I have seen, and I think the critiques are weak.

    Again, you show me a young guy who is owning these fellas, I'll buy it. If nothing else, at 35, Dale Davis could give you 15 or 20 minutes of quality big man defense. Big deal. Antonio was always the more talented player.

    Some people like him, some people don't. If he ends up in our jersey, I will root for him, if he stays in someone else's colours, I will hiss and boo (while admiring his talent). This is all hypotheticals anyway. I have a feeling Joe will double Amir and Kwame's salaries and hope they transform into Sheed with a post game, and Dice with hands. I can already see Eli in a wizard's robe with Tom Wilson holding the spell book as Zaret reads the incantations.
     
  6. max

    max All-Star

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    Sheed was not playing so hot for stretch there ( in all areas) but he has really stepped it up lately.
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Old dogs. As Dice said, less or no practice lets these guys play longer.

    Basketball is a trade. Sheed has a book (mentally) on most of his matchups. He's been around long enough to defend everyone from Shaq to Cliff Robinson. Same thing with Dice. Lindsey Hunter was great on D even when he was one of the worst offensive guards in the league, because he played above the neck.

    But that takes time. The 24 year old Hunter, was not as great a defender as the 34 year old Hunter.
     
  8. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Micro and lpgrl:

    Nice discussion. I like several of your points. Micro, agree, I would trade the entire youth of the Pistons (except Stuckey) for a Bosh. And that even with an occasional good performances like Maxiel tonight (although the last block came after he stood glued as the Toronto guy went around him for the board--I notice Curry called him out on it).

    I love the remark that Dyss is too old except when he outplays all our young bigs which is just about every game lately. But yes, looking forward, Sheed and Dyss need to be replaced or phased out sadly to say. These two guys have had real skill sets that are hard to replace.

    Lpgrl, I agree that neither Bosh or Boozer is a superstar or max player but Joe probably knows this. You seem to have a good grasp of talent in the league as I have read your posts. I have only disagreed with your posts on our youth. I think they have been overrated by fans--not something surprising.

    We really need a combination of two guys on the front court. Bosh did not dominate anyone tonight but could be a force on the Pistons coupled with another capable big.
     
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    It sounds like everyone likes him well enough, it is just a question of price, which is very fair. Since we don't know what price he'll go for, it's hard to weigh in on it.

    But all indications are that the market won't be what it usually is, so maybe we can get him at a fair price.
     
  10. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    The Pistons do well when:

    1) They get something, anything, from the young bigs--Maxiel tonight.

    2) They are able to spread the floor and take and hit a fair amount of threes.

    The Pistons simply cannot pound the ball in time and again. The personnel is not there for it and NBA defenses are too good packing the lane. I know that most Piston fans look for more points in the paint and lament that the team is a jump shooting team. Not really. NBA jumping shooting teams rely a lot on the three ball. The Pistons are a mid-range team. Only Sheed is a natural three point shooter and have we sorely missed his offense!

    Again tonight, key plays were Afflalo's late three and Tay's three in overtime. The Pistons couldn't score late in the game as happens often and finally threw the ball out to Afflalo who hit the three. The other option, take a contested shot in the lane and clang it in all probability.

    I have clamored for Tay to play more as a spot up shooter as he did in overtime. What do you think the result would have been if he pumped faked and tried to drive instead?
     
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Because we know the Pistons operate within the constraints of not paying the luxury tax, how much we pay a player is only relevant to how much of our total salary level under the cap his contract absorbs, and what better options are available to allocate those salaries. This is under normal conditions.

    Under abnormal conditions, because the tax level could contract, Joe will not flirt with acquiring huge pieces he can't trade later (bearing in mind the ability of potential partners to take on those big deals, not the attractiveness of the outgoing assets), or pushing too close to a falling salary level.
     
  12. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    I hate to open this up but the team could really use AI at the end of games in crunch time. I have not be impressed with the AI fit but his skill sets could come in handy at the end of games when teams seem to have a handle on what the Pistons are running.

    This Piston team needs to score down the stretch to win. They simply have not shown much ability to lock down and in the NBA these days, with the rules, that is hard to do for all but the best defenses.
     
  13. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Maybe I'm arguing with myself, but just wanted to point a few things out. I am saying it is ridiculous to bag on Sheed and call him a 2 guard but then pine for Bosh to play here. He took 31 shots tonight.

    Sheed didn't start at 24 but did drop 30-34 points in the WCF against Duncan at 24. The following year he had a huge series against LA again in the WCF.

    What I don't like about Bosh is that he comes up short pretty consistently against what should be the "die hard" match-ups for him against his fore fathers.

    Would DET even be better with Bosh now and without Sheed and Dyess? T-Dot has some talent.
     
  14. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Who knows, maybe this won't be the case now?
     
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Well, that certainly is not one of my arguments. I think you and I see Sheed for what he is, and isn't.

    Toronto has Calderon and Bosh. Bargnani is Dirk without the post ups or rebounding. Parker would be a 6th man or lower on most other teams (and I like him), and the bloom is off Marion.

    I think they are about as good as we are without AI and Sheed, and showed it tonight.

    So if you asked me if we would be better with Sheed + Bosh, or Dice, then I would have to say, yeah, I think we would be. I think Bosh and Dice would make a pretty nice combo to be honest.
     
  16. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think they get so cautious under the guise of milking the clock that is kills them. They'd be better off scoring and leaving time on the clock than working it down to .03 before shooting.

    Horrible isn't a strong enough word to describe Stukey taking the clock down for the last shot. He might as well be blind folded.
     
  17. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm saying Bosh is in and Dyess and Sheed are no longer Pistons.

    If you got a young big who's supposed to be a game changer then they should at least have a .500ish record. They're not stacked, but they're not barren either. Pull the team together.
     
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I think that being that Palace Sports and Entertainment is a corporation, the new shareholders will be more likely to run it as a business than to start treating these assets like the diversions of a billionaire.

    I wouldn't bet on the team being run with the same degree of personality (for better and worse) as it was under Bill D.
     
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I know, I didn't want to tackle that so I evaded it. Who is the other big? Kwame? Amir? Max?

    Bargnani?

    It makes a huge difference.

    They have a coach who would barely be an assistant on other squads (Triano, whom I appreciate for his work with Team Canada), and a roster where Roko Ukic is Will Bynum (he isn't) and Joey Graham is supposed to be Maxiell (he's not).

    They are lucky to be 2/3rds as talented as us, and dramatically less seasoned.
     
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I mentioned this in the chat. They continue at times to play like the Flip Pistons, playing not to lose, rather than playing to win.

    They almost choked the game away tonight trying to win it without scoring another basket. I hope Stuckey doesn't make this a part of his psyche because it will render him completely useless in big games.
     

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