at Portland Trailblazers Tuesday November 9 10:00 pm

Discussion in 'November 2010' started by roscoe36, Oct 19, 2010.

  1. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    2T4Y, there are many reasons why I think Tay's departure is more urgent than Rip's. First, let's analyze Tay the player. Typically the following abilities are attributed to Prince:
    1. Good defensive player.
    2. Glue-guy that keeps the team together.
    3. Veteran presence that provides leadership.
    4. Capable scorer as a 3rd option on the team.
    These qualities made Prince an invaluable piece of the 2004 championship team.

    Now, let's look at these one by one.

    #1: This no longer is true. Prince has become a lousy defender over the past few years. This may be more due to the fact that he doesn't care as opposed to diminishing skills. Whatever the reason is, he can no longer guard his man. He runs back during opponents' fast breaks, but not to challenge the shot. He simply runs parallel to the attacker and makes sure he gets out of the way. His perimeter defense is laughable. He's always late to rotate. He does put up a hand when he's defending shots, and he never fouls a shooter. That's because when he puts up his hand, it's more because it's something he's supposed to be doing as opposed to really trying to alter the shot. He is getting lazier and more disinterested every day.

    #2: This no longer is true either. He openly challenges the coach constantly, he rarely involves other players in the offense once he has the ball and he doesn't seem to care for any of the youngsters. Not only he is no longer "the glue", he is actually hurting team chemistry. Perhaps not with his words, but by his behavior, especially on the court.

    #3: He is a veteran, there's no doubt about that. However, none of his experience seems to influence anyone on the team. "Screw y'all, I'm the only one that can score and I ain't passin' the rock" attitude is not a way to lead a team. Arnie's bananas provide more leadership than him.

    #4: For long stretches in each game it looks like he feels like he's the #1 option and doesn't give the ball up. He ends up using too much of the clock and keeps forcing very difficult shots. He does score, but his one-man-above-all offense really throws off any rhythm and coherence the team has. As a result, even on nights where he scores a lot of points, his scoring actually hurts the team more than it helps.

    So, none of the qualities that made him a special player in the past apply any more. Prince without those 4 qualities is a mediocre player who is past his prime. Nothing more. On top of all this, his defeatest attitude, his ball hogging and bad decision making and Q's tendency to overplay him all make a bad situation worse.

    I really really like Prince as a player. Well, at least the player he used to be. I truly believe he has 2-3 more good years left in him. Just not here. His departure will be good for everyone. He will play better wherever he goes, and our team will be able to move forward.

    On the other hand, Rip can still produce. He can still score a lot of points and he is capable of mixing it up. Granted his departure would also be a very good thing for this team going forward, but he hasn't strayed away from the qualities that made him an All-Star. He is still a reliable mid-range shooter, still one of the best in the league. He can hit the spot-up three and post-up. Still can shoot the FTs at a good percentage too. Oh, and also, Q has been managing his minutes much better than last year. I see Prince as a roadblock to any wins. Rip on the other hand is still serviceable.

    Also, a Stuckey-Gordon-Rip backcourt rotation is much better than a Stuckey-Gordon-Bynum backcourt. I would prefer to see more of Bynum's minutes go to Gordon. Also, with Prince gone, T-Mac will play more minutes at SF, which will also mean more minutes to go around for guards.
     
  2. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Walt, great analysis on Prince..
     
  3. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    The second half was so much different than the first half. In the first half we had some fight. Even in the third, when the bench came in, we fought. As soon as the starters came back in everybody gave up. On almost every posession in the 4th, we attempted a shot with 0-1 passes. Terrible game. Terrible terrible terrible.

    Q needs to do to Prince what he did to Stuckey. Park him next to Maxiell for a game or two. Tay was by far one of the worst players last night. I don't care what the box score says. He has this aura of gloom that spreads and sucks the life blood out of all his teammates. He has become "the gloom guy" if you will.

    Stuckey sucked last night. Too many forced shots. But I don't put that on him. He was just unfortunate to be in the same lineup as Rip and Tay. He was one of the first to get caught in Tay's waves of depression.

    Any bright spots? Well, Gordon can still shoot. So can Daye. If only they're given opportunities. And, CV actually played some serviceable defense in the first half. The other thing I noticed is whenever we move the ball well, we score easily.

    Monroe's lack of hops is starting to get irritating. If that guy can somehow become half as athletic as Maxiell, he'll be a monster in this league. But, I'm willing to let it pass this season, him being a rookie and all. He brings enough to the table that we're better with him on the court.

    I'm not looking forward to the Clippers game. Griffin will have a career game.
     
  4. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    As a fan not being around the Pistons during the successful years I've always wondered what made Tay to the glue guy he always gets credit to be. I just thought it was something I didn't register since everybody else seemed so convinced but I guess it might be because I started watching the Pistons when he had lost most of this quality.
     
  5. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Why would you put it on him, he's a victim in all this. You forgot to mention that AI and Sheed are bringing Stuckey down too.
     
  6. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    Can we pin some blame on Bynum for his defensive "effort" in the second half? Guys were just blowing by him at will.
     
  7. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    Only on paper. As others have noted, it seems impossible that both of them can play well when they are both playing. One guy does well, but they rarely both play well.

    The back court is too crowded. Stuckey and Gordon need most of the minutes. I'm in favor of cutting Bynum out of the rotation completely.
     
  8. del

    del Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    I got myself the NBA League Pass the other night and this game was the first I watched on it. I almost want to ask for my money back.


    The few positives:

    It was the first time I'd seen him play and I liked Monroe's game early - that was until nothing was happening on offence and he seemed to take the game on himself (but that seems to be the way at the moment with most of the players)

    The more of Daye I see, the more I like. Got a good stroke on his shot and seems comfortable shooting it from most areas. His D was lacking a little though.


    The few glaring things I saw:

    We gave waaaay to many easy shots early, meaning Portland got their eye in and it was always going to be tough from there.

    Rip and Tay are playing for thier trades it seems. Heard Rip saying during the week that he needs to go get his shots more, and he did exactly that - pity most of the shots he took were ill advised.

    Tay seems really frustrated with Daye and while his defence wasn't great, the looks and ways he communicates this to Daye is just not on for someone who should be one of the leaders of the team. Probably as above, relates to him playing for his trade, but I also put this on the way the Kuester behaves on the sidelines too.

    Stuckey, while making some good hard drives, should be a bit more aware of the open shots that creates around him as the game goes on. There was a handful of times he could have dished to the open man for an easy 2 or 3.

    Lastly (and more lengthy) - what the hell is with Kuester?

    I was upbeat in the first despite our defensive problems as I thought Kuester had decided to get the team moving fast. With the eveness in talent and no superstars that runs through the lineup, using the subs and just getting at the opposition seems like the best way to get us in games.

    Now I'm no coach and never have been, but I feel I can see the obvious times to substitute while he is busy screaming at umpires, or making faces and feeling hard done by when Portand make a tough shot, or just sitting with his head in his hands. Even when he does make a sub, he seems to make the wrong one.

    Less than a minute on the clock in the 2nd and we're down by two and have the chance to go in up at the half. He brings in Rip, who has been shooting poorly and stagnating the offence

    With the game slipping away and out to 15 points in the last with 10 or so minutes left, there was time to make some changes and try to get a run on like we did in the second. Kuester? DOES NOTHING FOR 5 MINUTES, leaving Rip and Tay in the game to try and force their shots some more. He didn't even call a time out?!

    Even when the game was over, and the commentators were noting that we were just giving time to some younger guys, why was a 36 year old Ben Wallace running out the game? I can only assume he was trying out a new combination on the floor - but with the makeup, it didn't seem likely.

    There were other seemingly glaring times to make subs, but he just gets frustrated and sits there.



    Please hurry up and get this sale through. There need to be some big changes made, and it seems like nothing is going to get done until then.
     
  9. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    I've never seen Tay demonstrate himself as the glue guy either. Always thought he was the most overrated of the 2004 starting 5. :stirthepot:
     
  10. Brap

    Brap Starter

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    Bynum is starting to worry me. Is he playing hurt? The thing about him that makes him valuable is when he goes to the rim. He's unstoppable when he does that. But I'm not seeing him play aggressively at all. Instead of us being led by a dynamic guard off the bench - a super aggressive scoring machine - he has been taking a back seat and operating like a guy who's job isn't to force anything inside, and just passively set up his teammates. IMO, he's useless in that type of role.

    Bynum needs to play super aggressive BB, or he doesn't belong as a rotation player in this league.

    Also, as many have noted, he's beyond awful on D. What happened to the guy who in his first year with us was wearing teams out with his on-ball D and pressing style?
     
  11. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    He got paid :eyebrows:
     
  12. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Why do people keep bringing up Walter Herrmann still?
     
  13. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    I am tired. Still, I will try to take a moment to write the game up. Beats doing homework, the next thing on my list.

    Well, I see a lot of writeups, thanks to all. Most of the writeups I read miss what happened though. Small ball hurt us. A lot of individual players are getting criticized, and yet, if you see these players play during a small ball situation, and then see them in a logical unit, gee, in one case the team is losing, the other, the team is winning. Same players.

    In this game, the two best examples are Tay and Stuckey. Both were part of the 2nd quarter comeback. But CV and Monroe were in the game, meaning we were not going small. And Tay was at small forward, so we were not going small there either.

    One person noticed that Rip came in for the last minute of the first half, but did not notice that put Rip in at small forward. Small ball. Pointless, clueless small ball. Three guards when the other team by no means was going small.

    And we start the game with small ball. People did notice Daye had a good game. But they don't mention that he was heavily minus for the game. Yes, Daye got some rebounds, but we were badly outmuscled on the boards in that first quarter, and again in the 3rd quarter. Daye by no means is a power forward.

    Now, yes, some did note that Q won't sub. But really, what they should be saying is that Daye at power forward just does not work. Its not a subbing problem, its just a bad starting unit to begin with. The starting unit has not worked all season long, not just this game.

    Yes, if Tay is overplayed, he is pretty much worthless. And this coach has not a clue of this. I wonder if Tay even knows. He should. This has not changed from the first year he started. Larry Brown noticed, and adjusted for it. Since then, cluelessness has been the norm among our coaches on this subject.

    Yes, Bynum playing so much is a sore spot with me too. We proved that TMAC can play the point, but as soon as Bynum returned, we stopped using it. TMAC palying the point, as one of the guards out there, makes us a much bigger team. Guess that's why Kuester won't go back to it. He is in love with small ball.

    We only like the CV / Monroe combination because the other combination is so bad. Daye an Ben Wallace are terrible together. So we keep a blind eye to CV's shortcomings, like not getting back on transition D nor rotating well defensively.

    TMAC can help the team. But that does not mean he is ready for more than a short stint a game. And if he is not playing the point for us, eliminating the need for Bynum to play, his value is truly questionable.

    People believe because JMAX is not playing, he must not deserve to. What, the same coach who would not play Monroe the first two games now has a clue? He don't. JMAX should be playing, as well as Summers. And to accomplish this - CV should play less, and each of our guards should play less. Basically, we need to play taller, stronger players. We have to play defense. And don't tell me Ben Wallace is getting that old all of the sudden. He is just in an impossible situation with no power forward playing along side him.
     
  14. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Hey man, take it easy on our +/- leader for the season. He's actually the only player on the team who is above 0.

    He gave his opinion in an interview at the start of the season where he said that he thinks that the PG needs to play more unselfishly and incorporate others on the team first. He's just probably trying to take a back seat scoring wise so that other guys can get easier shots.
     
  15. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    The thing is, Bynum doesn't play unselfish ball. He tends to hold the ball till there's only a few seconds left, and he'll either pass to someone for an assisted jump shot or he'll drive it to the rim and get packed.

    Bynum being the team leader in +/- is most certainly a fluke. I don't think he's had one game yet where he had a positive impact on the game.
     
  16. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    ...........
     
  17. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    I love Will Bynum, but he is really struggling this year. Like Helen Keller he is not a pure PG, he is a scoring guard who can make plays for others. In the past Bynum was pretty decent with his drive and kick game, but this year he seems to be making an attempt to be a facilitator and it just isn't working because it simply isn't his game. T-Mac is by far the closest thing we have on this team to a facilitating PG, and he can only play 15mpg (every other game). If T-Mac can get healthy enough to endure the entire season and play about 24mpg, I think a 3 guard rotation of Stuckey, Gordo & a healthy T-Mac could be very formidable.
     
  18. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    lol

    Is Rip getting kidnapped? Hamilton gets his 30 minutes a night regardless of whether he's earned them or not.
     
  19. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    I'm living in a fairytale world where Joe trades Rip, Tay and Max for a pick or 2 and an expiring contract............ But we all know how realistic that is ..........
     
  20. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Let's see...

    Well, he was the guy who everyone always thought should be doing more, and therefore must have been sacrificing his output for the good of the team. And he never complained about touches or anything, and surely that means he was taking one for the team.

    To be fair, he often seemed to be the only one who knew how the play ought really to be run and demonstrated the correct patterns constantly using his patented praying mantis pose and flailing arms.

    He's an upper middle player talent wise who knew how to fit in well with the rest of the team. His length surprised folks and enabled him to do pretty good with the help side defense. But, I don't think it's surprising that he never made an all star team even when everyone else did. (Or at least I don't remember him making it.)
     

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