At Orlando Magic Feb. 27th, 7:00 PM

Discussion in 'February 2009' started by Dlev59, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    I think what Rip was saying is that no matter how many points he scored coming off the bench; it couldn't overcome the hole they were starting in. Not that he couldn't produce.

    I have to agree with Lee on the proposed rotations. We need to find a way to break up Sheed and Dice on the floor. It is O.K. for spurts but we need to have the quickness that Max and Amir provide on the floor. I am hoping that if we stay with this line up that Curry somehow finds a way to sub early for Dice or Sheed with Max or AJ. He could keep the starting line up he has now to establish a rhythm but after the first 5-6 minutes; make that substitution.

    Keep Max, AJ and Kwame engaged because I think our success will depend on them a little. Not as 25-30 minute guys but as 5-10 minute change of pace players; especially when AI is back and coming off the bench.

    I would really like to see AJ and AI find some kind of chemistry on the second unit racing up and down the floor. I think they would compliment each other well because I am sure AJ would set screens and roll for AI all night long and be right with him on the fast breaks looking for a lob and dunk.

    It's all about putting the players on the floor that have the skills to play the same type of game. AI, AA and AJ want to run so let them while Stuck, Rip and Dice play the half court pick and pop game.
  2. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Great point about Stuck which Curry actually alluded to in a rare moment of clarity. And obviously i agree with the second as well especially your last sentence.
    Exactly. I think the AA/AI pair has the ability to be deadly. They compliment eachother so well. And while i want Amir to start; he could ver well flourish with that unit. I just really like his comfort level with Sheed.

    Bingo.

    At the risk of wearing out the edit button;

    Another really great point, and a strong case for Kwame to be getting consistent minutes.
  3. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Everybody gets one player they're allowed to dislike and not see any good in regardless of any actual facts.

    Now that Reggie Miller is retired, I'm onto Jameer. He's a bum.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Sheed played hard the last two games. His Miami performance was embarrassing.

    This is not a critique of anyone else, but I watch pretty much every damn minute, of every game, win or lose. I'm in the chat each night, and don't turn off the game, no matter how disgusted I get. Now that doesn't make me more qualified to have an opinion than anyone else, but I am observing each game.

    And readily admit my observations could be wrong. I'm certainly no analyst.
  5. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Agreed. A hoser bum.
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That doesn't explain the last 3 seasons. That doesn't explain that LB demanded effort, and ground it out of guys, and since he left, the ability to find another gear has disappeared when the going gets tough.

    I don't think there are any one or two factors that explain everything. It's the Piston Paradox to think "if only we played the right guys, at the right time, we would win every game". It's a paradox, because if it was as simple as managing the rotation, and not talent, skill, luck, effort, coaching, preparation, temperature, happiness, divine inspiration, motivation, excitement, passion, etc etc etc, then every other team could also optimize their lineup, which would lead to a tie outcome and a game that never ends as both teams are optimally matched for success.

    And no, I am not kidding. There is no roster panacea. Oh sure, we look better without a 3rd guard who needs monster minutes. Remember, Stuck was putting up 40, playing with AI. The addition by subtraction argument may have some merit, but if so, the chemistry issue is a non-factor, because we beat the Nuggets in Denver without two key pieces of the 3 man core of chemical excellence.

    None of this is simple. Obviously, we all have our pet theories and want to make it simple. But it isn't. It's not about, sit AI, play Amir (or sit Walt, sit Dice, play spellcheck, play bynum etc). My lord, if only the championship was that easy to attain.

    The mythology goes, Carlisle replaced Curry with Tay, and we took off on our great run.

    But the reality was, Ben Wallace called out his teammates for playing soft and the team coalesced around his leadership and became legend by gutting out a 7 game series win down 3-1 against Orlando.
  7. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    I don't watch ANY games. Ever. And I agree with you almost 100 percent of the time on these particular issues (the current state of the team).

    I'm not sure what that means, exactly...maybe I should just shut up and stick to the fantasy threads, eh? :nod::laugh:
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Never shut up. I need the backup. Just stop telling people you agree with me, but don't watch the games. lol
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm just saying, 6 points from Sheed isn't exactly lighting it up.

    We were very guard heavy last night. 57% of our scoring came from Rip and Stuckey. Rip was the primary guy that had Rip's back. He led the game in scoring while shooting 61%! He got to the FT line for 10 attempts (only 1 less than Howard). He led the game in assists. He led the game in steals. The man he was guarding got 10 points, no free throws, and fouled Rip 4 times.

    Rip tore it up. Besides Rip and Stuckey, the rest of the Pistons shot a combined 34%.

    Rip attempted 18 shots last night. Iverson has attempted that many shots or more 15 times this year, yet he only has 1 game where he actually scored more than Rip did last night. It's an efficiency issue.
  10. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    With the effort I am particularly talking about this season. Valid arguments can be made under Flip, the last 3 season, etc.

    This season i haven't seen an effort problem. I haven't seen the "hey, we're so good, we just have to show up" or "turn it on" attitudes. This team is aware they are not championship contenders and aware that to have a chance at success they have to put forth effort at all times.

    As much i love CB, he did have the laid back attitude that could have contributed to some of the arrogance (but IMO also was the team's confidence and cohesiveness so i guess a trade-off of sorts).

    The mind-set is evident when you hear a player say; "We still believe we are a playoff team" (not contender). This season i see massive amounts of frustration and some bad body language resulting from that, but i don't see quit and i don't see them not trying.
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Sheed did a fantastic job on Howard. His game some nights is not based on a box score, but rather the performance of his matchup. When LaMarcus Aldridge pwns him, he's playing bad even if he puts up 16 and 8.

    When he scores 6, and Dwight Howard nearly gets ejected because he's flipping out with frustration, that is a masterful performance.

    As time goes on, I look less and less at the box scores, and more and more at what is going on like picks and hustle, movement and technique. I'm no analyst. The best in game analysts on this board that I have seen are BillLaimbeer and KGREG, then probably D4E and Dre. I try to notice what they notice because it seems to be a rounder picture of what is happening, rather than the confirmation biases of judging the game after we know the results.

    It's a known fact, we're more likely to free pass a 1 point win, than a 1 point loss, just because of the outcome, even if we fought like dogs to lose by 1, or just barely held on to a 1 one point victory in crunch time with the clock running out on our surging opponent.
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    This is really funny. I think you might want to watch the games then, because the effort most nights is just not there. They didn't play better against NOH, they played hard. They competed. They showed heart. Too much this season, that has been totally absent.

    Perhaps you've been seeing it for so long, you take it for granted. Until Sheed flipped out in NOH, it looked like none of these guys cared anymore, even AI and Dice, looked like they were defeated in that Miami game.

    It's nice that you believe that, but I don't think they do. I think they still think if they limp into the 8th spot, they can catch lightning in a bottle. It's always, after the All-star break, once the playoffs start. Sheed even made this comment a week or so ago, about how once the playoffs start, then they will really lock in. Like, heaven forbid they start locking in today or the day before. lol

    There is a difference between throwing in the towel and going through the motions. Most of these guys assume that you can keep going through the motions until the playoffs start. Big mistake. It's been our achilles heel for 4 and a half years. These fellas that I love so much, have never again matched the focus, sacrifice and intensity they had in 2004.

    If it ain't rough, it ain't right. Except when it is rough, then it is also not right.
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm not saying Sheed didn't have a decent game, but I am saying that it didn't appear to me that he was sandbagging with AI and then suddenly turned up the effort to help his buddy Rip.

    Last time we played Orlando, AI started and Rip didn't even play. Sheed had 16 points and shut Howard down in the first half, only allowing 2 points.

    Sheed's effort was unrelated to Rip vs. AI and Sheed actually played better in the game with AI than he did in the game with Rip.
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    The Sheed of the last two games, is not the Sheed of the previous five.

    :sssh:



    :rofl:
  15. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    This is a completely subjective take. And i disagree totally.

    Frustration does not = lack of effort. Being frustrated and looking defeated because we are losing does not constitute not trying.

    I remember that comment and it was said during the midst of a very bad stretch. IIRC, He didn't say that. He said once you get into the PO's anything can happen. He kept saying that the team just needed to make the PO's and take it from there, and that's what he was telling the guys.

    I don't see how you could possibly call what they are doing "going through the motions". These guys look like they are about to commit suicide after each game. They are trying. IMO, it's clear as day. One of the reasons they look so defeated is because they are trying and still can't win.

    This is not the team of the "switch" era; not even close.
  16. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Please tell me you accidentally wrote this word. This should be censored by the language filters. :MusicBigGrin:

    I think the team has looked discombobulated from a lack of effort and from confusion about roles and starting lineups, etc. But I don't think that they were purposely dogging it to get Rip back in the SL and then just decided to get their act together all of a sudden. But, I didn't see the whole game, so my opinion is not based on any personal observation.
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That's fine. I'm simply making observations based on energy, body language and facial expressions.

    I know. AI and Dice have been the guys getting frustrated.

    You're kidding right?

    This is a team of the switch era. This is the sunset lineup for that era of talented underachievement. This is the last shot at redemption.

    I know this team can compete for a title. If they want to. It isn't a lack of talent or experience holding them back.
  18. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Funny, I agree with this. But I also feel like this is the sunset lineup for that era of undertalented overachievement. I wonder if somehow both characterizations (of the era I mean) might be true.
  19. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    No
    While i agree that talent is not holding them back, Michael Curry is and lack of confidence in themselves. Jon Barry's commentary last night was pretty good and being that he's closer to the team than most of the others, i take his the Pistons having trouble believing they are still good team as telling. And even with everything in place perfectly, i still don't know if this is a title contender.

    edited to add;

    Actually i take that back. With everything in place perfectly they will be, but i have alot more faith in Amir and AA's abilities than most people.
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    My opinion on that, is that if Rip is unhappy, Tay is unhappy. Sheed is unhappy. Grieve for one and all.

    I don't think the players had a mutiny with Joe and gave him an ultimatum about putting Rip back in the lineup. But these guys are all closer to each other, dare I say closer to Billups and Ben than Joe. And that creates conflict. As TaS pointed out, on the nights when we play good, we win regardless of who is in the lineup. Kwame, AI, Amir, Rip doesn't matter.

    Let's not forget the Joe Dumars is telling Curry who to play rumour, which I am inclined to believe it is true, because Curry called out whoever was doing it in the paper.

    There was simply too many low energy games, where the other team hit us, and we didn't hit back.

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