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Andre Drummond thread

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by webz, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    And do we give him another 4 years to develop?
    Absolutely ridiculous that his athletic talent has never been advanced. Why? It is all internal.
    Forget Dre, since Stan will have to give him at least another year and you won't get an alternative package to move him.
    Since Mlive came out today with my personal direction that the Pistons must take; I might as well state the obvious:
    The Pistons need a solid, athletic guard. I have two choices on my list:
    1. Dennis Smith (which the NY Knicks should take).
    2. Donovan Mitchell (the next 6-3" K. Lowry). This is so simple a solution, that's it embarrassing if they get an opportunity and pass on him.
    Watch the latter player climb at the polls.
    Can this be a smoke-screen by the Pistons? Not from my eye test.
     
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  2. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    So I was trying to find some stats to prove TaS wrong. Yeah, I know. It's like a high schooler trying to take on LeBron. - it's futile, you know you're not gonna win, but it's fun and you might learn something new. Which I did. Drummond actually just finished this season as the player with the top defensive rating. Here's the top 10 for the 2016-17 season:

    1. Andre Drummond • DET 99.0
    2. Draymond Green • GSW 99.1
    3. Rudy Gobert • UTA 99.2
    4. Hassan Whiteside • MIA 100.0
    5. Dwight Howard • ATL 100.5
    6. Kevin Durant • GSW 101.3
    7. Anthony Davis • NOP 101.5
    8. Pau Gasol • SAS 101.6
    9. Kawhi Leonard • SAS 101.6
    10. DeAndre Jordan • LAC 102.3

    Also, he is at his best scoring-wise in the 4th quarter, and towards the end of quarters, but that's when we used him the least! See these numbers (quarter/FGA/FGM/FG%/EFG%):
    1st/162/338/.479/.479
    2nd/111/211/.526/.528
    3rd/135/237/.570/.572
    4th/73/120/.608/.608
    OT/1/2/.500/.500

    Time left in the quarter/FGA/FGM/FG%/EFG%
    <3mins/86/159/.541/.544
    3-6mins/146/276/.529/.529
    >6mins/250/473/.529/.530

    This data suggests that Drummond is at his best as the pressure rises. It kinda makes sense since he's a beast when he's fully engaged. However, that's when we seem to use him the least. Trying to avoid intentional fouling is certainly something that plays into this. However, I think that our guards and wing players too often try to be the hero that wins the game with ill-advised contested long range shots. In many games we lost in the 4th quarter, the ball movement stops, we stop executing and we go isolation hero-ball. That's partly because our players are still too young to realize that they're no longer the dominant superstars of their high school, but it also comes down to coaching.
     
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Yeah, but SVG is holding him back. STAY ON NARRATIVE!

    This. It's not just that Dre isn't getting a lot better, it's that in a league loaded with talent, he can't even get into the All-Star game in a center deprived Eastern Conference.

    Who made the playoffs?

    You had to know that question was coming.

    Give him 400 years! He is Andre Drummond. The Prince Who Was Promised!

    Yup. He either wants it or he does not. He either can achieve it for himself, or not.

    I'd rather it be the other way around. Easier to win when you have an early lead. Come from behind victories are difficult to pull off in a league loaded with B2B games.
     
  4. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Van Gundy has got to go!
     
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  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Looks like we use him about the same in the first 6 min of each quarter as the last 6 min. I think that's because of the rotation patterns and GT. Ie he'll never play at the end of the first quarter, but will usually be there at the end of the 2nd.
     
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  6. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    With that DRtg, the method they use is to measure what they think the defensive measurable are from the box score i believe. It's different than an on/off type approach where they look at how many points the other team scores while he's on the court, etc. The pro of this method is that it tries to pick pick out his individual contribution. The con is that it can miss the non measurable parts of defense. The other method can miss just as well.

    Rebounding and steals must be highly weighted in this version.
     
  7. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I was looking up Dre stats last week and was shocked to see your stats as I recalled Dre's Drating being very poor.

    I assume you got yours from bball reference, whereas I got mine from nba.com. There seems to be quite a large discrepancy and I can't figure out why.

    upload_2017-4-26_10-23-17.png
     
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  8. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 5x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    That is a huge difference. Very bizarre. Most be using completely different formulas.
     
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  9. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Seems this is not new. Found a couple of reddit threads about this and it does look like they are calculated differently. I ended up finding the calculations behind them.

    Basketball Reference
    Based on the Individual Offensive and Defensive Rating efficiency metrics developed by Dean Oliver in his 2004 book Basketball on Paper.
    "...his Defensive Rating estimates how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court."
    Calculating Individual Offensive and Defensive Ratings | Basketball-Reference.com

    NBA.com
    DefRtg (Defensive Rating)
    Measures a team's points allowed per 100 possessions. On a player level this statistic is team points allowed per 100 possessions while he is on court. This statistic is also more exact than typical Player "possession based" calculations, because we calculate rather than estimate players' possessions on the court.
    NBA.com/Stats | Stat Glossary

    So the figure of 99 suggests he is a good individual defender, but the 109 suggests his team does not play good defense when he is on the court.
     
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  10. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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  11. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Something called Human Nature.
    That Lord is the smaller vision called, eye test: sensitivity levels that are particular to you and you only.
    Those visuals have many connections or associations; but, from many...go subservient connections that mostly go unhidden.
    One of those esoteric connections might contain smell or perhaps, another sense.
    My favorite: Similla's Sense of Snow, authored by Stieg Larrson (Mystery Scene).
    In summation, Oline Cogdill perceptively comments that it:
    dramatically explores alienation, the loss of identity, cultural diversity, exploitation of the environment, science and the intricacies of love.
     
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  12. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    The most likely reason for the discrepency is that he is sharing the court with some weak defenders.

    The bball ref list does include all strong defenders.
     
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  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Huge Larrson fan.
     
  15. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Not written by Stieg Larsson.
     
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  16. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Your right...it was written by Peter Hoeg. My bad.
     
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  17. junior

    junior All-Star 5x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    NBA.com certainly seems to be biased towards team-performance:
    Screen Shot 2017-04-26 at 10.49.33 AM.png

    Although, one Piston appears when you relax the minute restriction:
    Screen Shot 2017-04-26 at 10.54.48 AM.png
     
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  18. junior

    junior All-Star 5x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Per basketballreference:
    Screen Shot 2017-04-26 at 10.57.40 AM.png

    I think we may be too close-minded about what it means to be a good/great defender. Andre's ability to dominate defensive rebounds and get steals may not be seen as a traditionally dominant big man, but that gets stops and that's what defense is about.
     
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  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Blocks are tough to value because of the deterrent aspect (ie maybe undervalued). I wish Dre had that kind of game in addition to everything else.

    However, there is definitely a tradeoff between fouls, and therefor ability to stay on the court, and blocks. Amir johnson is the best example I can think of. When he was with us, he was a very active shot blocker. But he fouled a ton. Now, he plays a game where he doesn't block as many and he stays in the game.

    With Dre, he seems to be playing to stay in the game based on my observation (despite SVG seeming to urge him to challenge shots). It's clear that he also doesn't have the timing that some others have, but he does have some great hops and obviously has the height.

    There is another side of shot blocking as well, and that is leaving your feet. If it doesn't result in a block or foul, it can also lead to a blow by, spin by, etc.
     
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  20. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 5x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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