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8 Months Later Monroe or Cousins

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by armygirl, Feb 5, 2011.

  1. Brap

    Brap Starter

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    I give Monroe a 95% chance of reaching his considerable potential. I love the kid's attitude and work ethic and his obvious high basketball IQ, and he's very very skilled. Because of his work ethic, he will absolutely maximize his physical potential: he'll get a lot stronger over the years. I also love his willingness to be a team player - and he makes a lot of great little plays. I see him as a focal point on offense down the road - a great high post player and competent low post player, a super passer, a fine scorer. I see him as one of the league's better rebounders. And I see him as a smart defender with great hands. I see zero reason why he's not an all-star caliber player in a few seasons.

    I give Cousins a 40% chance of reaching his considerable potential. I'm not 100% sure his potential ceiling is higher than Monroe's - especially after Monroe attains his peak strength in the next 5 years or so - but I can get the argument that his potential is slightly higher. I see Cousins as one of the least mature players the league has ever seen, and that just has to scare any sane follower of this game. I give him a 60% chance of imploding, and a high chance of being a guy who just can't quite be bothered to work on his game like a star does.

    There is no way I would take Cousins over Monroe, because Monroe is looking like he's a sure thing to at least be a good starting center or power forward (either or both positions) in this league, and he's got a really good chance of being better than that.
     
  2. Mr. Big Shot

    Mr. Big Shot First Round Draft Pick

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    Nice post Brap. I'm happy with Monroe, and would not chose Cousins over him. All star? Who knows, im not going to put up those types of expectations for him like I did for Stuckey. Solid starter? Absolutely. He's a good kid that comes in and works HARD. I'm not a piston insider and I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but he has made some serious improvements over the course of the season.

    I'm going to admit: I thought Monroe would have a hard time finishing for his whole career after seeing him get blocked so much early on, now he's a solid below the rim finisher, like Love and Randolph. He's probably the best passing big in this draft, but unfortunately we don't put him in a position to dish the rock much.

    Beyond all of that, he is a just a guy who you want on your team. He has a great feel for the game and doesn't care about individual stats, he'll do the dirty work. When I go to play at my local gym, there a ton of guys who are major chuckers. Decent ones at that, but they all want to be the hero, nobody wants to rebound or get others involved, and consequently I always pick the guy who may not take more than 5 shots the entire game, but they'll rebound and play D.

    My standing vertical is higher than his running vertical, and the same is true with a ton of the athletic big men he faces, but because he has solid hands, he wants the ball, and positions himself beautifully, he's been a great rebounder despite lack of athleticism.

    He is NO franchise player, but he's an important piece to the puzzle, we've found our C/PF moving forward.
     
  3. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's great to have a solid big man who can contribute immediately. This is the best value we're ever going to get because of the ceiling on his rookie contract.
     
  4. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    This really puts things in perspective. According to this obscure stat that I've never heard of before, Amir's a lock for HOF. How did we ever let this guy get away?
     
  5. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Great point. He keeps up this level of play and he'll become very expensive once his rookie contract runs out.
     
  6. HardyHar

    HardyHar First Round Draft Pick

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    I think he's been a blessing. The kind of player that improves a team on and off the court. He'll have a similar impact Ben Wallace has had with team unity and moral IMO.

    The fact we're even discussing him with Cousins, given the draft selection difference is a win in my book.
     
  7. jayborne

    jayborne Bench Warmer

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    It's a lot easier to be more efficient when you aren't really given much responsibility as Cousins' has. He has a better post game, a better jump shot from what I can tell, and is a decent passer. I'll give Monroe the edge on defense but he's just solid. Cousins a Coleman without the skills? Pretty sure skills are why teams were high on the guy.

    Doesn't seem like this thread is who you'd rather have, but who is already a Piston so we can give him 100% of the benefit of the doubt. Monroe is fine, but if the only limitation to Cousins being great is an attitude than I'll take him all day. But we had no shot at Cousins so Monroe is fine. He should be very solid. But eventually you're gonna need more than solid players to be anything more than a borderline playoff team.
     
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    I am happy with the pick. Have not seen much of Cousins, his stats are far better than Monroe's. Its hard to compare on that basis since Greg had quit a few games earlier where he only played a couple of mins that brought down his avg's.

    At least we do not have to worry about an attitude - has there been any issues with Cousins so far? I think we should be happy with what we got in trying to find a front court guy at #7. Greg will probably never be a big time scorer but will be a monster on boards and provide some good smarts and defense.
     
  9. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

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    That is where we differ on the selection of players. I would prefer the steady good attitude player thats game is growing with his experience over the attitude riddled temper team anchor anyday. Sure Cousins will go out and get ya points and play well, right up until he flames out and acts like an idiot..the rest of the team will see this and chemistry will disolve.
     
  10. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    In the current age of wunderkinds that are gaining entrance into the NBA at the ripe age of twenty, you begin to wonder on what scale judgment is based. Certainly, talent must be a high critical factor; but, so much seems to depends (in a latent sense) on a club's organizational decision making depth and the personality of the team's resulting cohesiveness.

    Right now Monroe brings the right personality, with lunch-pail in hand. This one worked out OK for JD, even if only by application by numerical placement. With multiple other talents that JD has, I would suggest that he needs better direction on how to manage potential personality clashes that he leaves for his coaches. Now....the coaches...that's another story and perhaps another direction (latent of course) that needs a more critical eye from JD. He does pick them...yes?
     
  11. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    Well, Cousins is a pretty poor athlete as well, and has trouble finishing, so I'd say that's another knock on him.

    It's hard to really even gauge Monroe's post game since it's been used so infrequently this year, but I like the moves he's shown there of late.
     
  12. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    DISCLAIMER: I am in now way actually comparing these two youngsters to two of the best PFs of the decade. I'm only dropping names to make a point.


    Cousins is a Sheed-type player and Monroe is a Duncan-type player.

    Cousins will wow you frequently, will be great at times, and will frustrate you endlessly because you expect so much more from him. Throughout his career will be the topic of endless articles that contain the phrase "... can be one of the best in the league if only...". Monroe's not flashy, but is steady and still gets the job done. It's a hare vs tortoise thing.
     
  13. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    How would we feel about Monroe if T-Mac were not here to feed him the ball on approx 85% of his hoops?
     
  14. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    And in the beginning when TMac was playing 15 minutes a game, whenever Monroe was in, he was not getting those feeds from Stuck or anyone else on the floor.

    And TMac won't be around long enough to create the Piston version of Stockton to Malone....
     
  15. Fear Laimbeer

    Fear Laimbeer Second Round Draft Pick

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    i feel like they are most def. holding something back.
     
  16. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Obscure stat? You've never heard of offensive rating or defensive rating? All I did was look at the difference between them.

    I just realized that Chris Paul is currently +17 on his career and Magic finished his career at +17. I'm trying to find one above than, but haven't been able to. Jabaar is a +16.

    I don't think that Amir is quite as good at MJ and company, but when you have a basic statistic that puts a player #1 in basketball history, you have to wonder if there is some talent there. The problem is that I'm not sure Joe puts any analysis into player evaluations besides watching them play... and any Piston fan knows that he spends 90% of each game with his thumbs typing away on his blackberry.

    It's really not easy to manufacture. Try finding a positive stat that puts any other player on the Pistons at #1 in history.
     
  17. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    I don't dispute that Amir is a talented kid. But he's nothing more than a rotation player. He's a starter for a bottom dweller or he can be a solid bench guy for a decent team.

    I'm just tired of Amir's name being mentioned over and over with legendary players because of some convoluted stat. To me it all sounds like "Amir always ties his left shoe before he ties his right shoe. You know, Michael Jordan, Karl Malone and Wilt Chamberlain used to be the same way."
     
  18. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    Chris Paul is the second best player in the league.
     
  19. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Well, you know, the only real distinction that I can make between Amir and guys like Chambelain, Jordan, and Malone is that Amir hasn't been able to land a big time endorsement deal with Nike or Reebok.

    Believe me, once he does, it won't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when David Stern creates his version of Mt. Rushmore that Amir's likeness will be up there with the rest of the great NBA legends.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm going to compare Cousins, Monroe, and Amir all side by side using very traditional stats. The only trickery that I'm going to include involves normalizing their minutes to "per 36". Cousings averages 26.5, Monroe averages 24.5, and Amir averages 26.1. Please don't point out that it is unrealistic to use 36 minute stats for guys who play 26 minutes, that doesn't matter, they are just published at 36 min stats.

    Playa: Pts / Reb / Ast/ Stl / Blk/ TOV/ PF/ TS%
    Cous: 18.4/ 10.5/ 2.5/ 1.1/ 1.0/ 3.7/ 5.4/ .481
    Monr: 10.6/ 9.5 / 1.3/ 1.5/ 0.7/ 1.4/ 3.4/ .542
    Amir: 14.3/ 9.3/ 1.7/ 1.1/ 1.5/ 1.5/ 5.2/ .683


    Scoring:
    Cousins has the highest scoring rate, but is highly inefficient. Monroe scores at the lowest rate with decent efficiency. Amir is in between the two with off-the-charts efficiency. Amir gets 60% of his shots in the paint and shoots .452 on shots outside the paint. Monroe gets 76% of his shots in the paint and shoots .229 on shots outside the paint. So, Amir's efficiency isn't primarily due to easier attempts. In this category, at this point, I'd go with Amir and his NBA history trying field goal percentage. If I had to pick between Monroe and Cousins, I'm not sure who I'd give the edge to in this category.

    Rebounding:
    All 3 rebound at a very similar rate, with Cousins being the highest. However, Cousins and Amir foul at a higher rate, which is partially incurred while trying to rebound. Monroe is probably the lowest risk rebounder and Cousins is probably the most talented. I'll give Cousins a slight edge here.

    Assists:
    Cousins at #1, Amir at #2, and Monroe at #3. There's substantial separation between them. However, in terms of Assists to turnovers, it goes Amir at #1, Monroe at #2, and Cousins at #3. Monroe is thought of to be the best pure passer of the 3 of them, but it's just not happening yet. I think we need to wait another year before judging in this category. Clearly, you're not going to run the triangle offense around Amir Johnson, but you might around Monroe. Also, these guys turn the ball over in ways that are totally unrelated to passing, so judging by Ast/TO ratio isn't necessarily useful. I want to look at Assists to passing turnovers to determine passing prowess. Cousins has 65 assists to 26 passing turnovers for a ratio of 2.5. Monroe has 32 assists to 14 passing turnovers for a ratio of 2.3. Amir has 49 assists to 11 passing turnovers for a ratio of 4.5. They all seem like pretty smart passers for big men to me. Amir currently has the best ratio, Cousins has the highest totals, and Monroe has the talent... and dare I say "potential".

    Steals:
    Monroe is clearly superior in this category... especially due to his low foul or gamble rate. Cousins and Amir are both very good however, it's just that Monroe is exceptional.

    Blocks:
    It goes Amir, Cousins, then Monroe. Pretty hard to argue otherwise. The thing to consider is how important shot blocking and paint protection are to a defense. I'm not going to get into that, because it gets into more derivative stats.

    Turnovers:
    Amir and Monroe are extremely sure handed big men for being young. Cousins is turnover prone so far. He's OK on passes, but has a boatload of ball handling turnovers. He does spend a lot of time with the ball with a high usage rate, but his turnovers are beyond that. This is somewhat normal though and one of those stats that is improvable as the player gets used to the league. All in all, I'd say that all 3 of these guys have pretty sure hands in the normal course of play. When they put the ball on the floor, Monroe is best. However, Cousins is the one putting the ball on the floor most often.

    Personal Fouls:
    I hesitate to look at this stat in isolation because it is a natural consequence of aggression to some extent. Dwight Howard has a very high foul rate for example while someone like Redick might not. Amir's foul rate is slightly lower than Cousins, which are both problems. Monroe seems to have no foul issues and can stay on the court indefinitely. I'm more interested in blocks per foul, steals per foul, and +/-, etc. Fouls can either be good or bad depending on the situation and those ratios and other stats can help you determine which they are. All in all, I'd take Monroe's lack of fouling with all else being equal (obviously).

    TS%:
    This was covered in scoring. Efficiency from the fields is not the end-all. When you combine efficiency and usage, then you're getting somewhere. Cousins has the high usage and low efficiency. Amir has low usage and extreme efficiency. Monroe has low usage with high efficiency.
     

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