2011 CBA Negotiations Thread

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by G-man, Aug 5, 2009.

  1. max

    max All-Star

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    Thanks for posting the article.

    NBA has to be careful because they do not exist in a vacuum anymore. If it ever drops to the point where players can make more oversees because of too many contract restrictions then that's the end of it.

    Starting losing money back in 2005-2006? That was also when the 30th team was added. Maybe the pie is being cut into too many pieces. If some of these new teams cannot establish a fan base and continue to lose money then maybe they should consider getting rid of some. De-expand the league by a couple of teams.
     
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    In any economic contraction, it is necessary to scale down, cut out dead wood, and get to a solid foundation to start building forward again.

    Unfortunately, the players want guaranteed incomes when the league cannot guarantee the state of the economy, or the growth rate of the league in a deep, deep recession that could last for many more years.

    The league however, did also squander a lot of resources, trying to create the WNBA product, and their expansions into owning their own network, instead of outsourcing the bonus coverage of the league to networks who already specialize in that sort of thing. Basically, it is all Rick Kamla's fault. ;)

    This battle is going to get ugly, but ultimately the players will lose. The EU has an even bigger economic contraction coming, now that they will bail out Greece, they may have to bail out Spain and Italy as well, and that will not bode well for European basketball salaries.
     
  3. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    The bill comes due...

    In my opinion, the reality is all of the top tier athletes and many in the secondary income tiers are paid ridiculously high wages. It's also true that ownership and the NBA have taken great advantage over the years in using those salaries to escalate costs and then pass it all on (at something like cost + 50) to us consumers.

    The NBA, (like baseball) seek to project the image that they're all about the blue collar fans when their actual arena and stadium trajectory has been about corporate suites and big buck credit card expenditures. The truth is the average joe is maybe buying one of the different TV pkgs and maybe attending a couple games a year at most cause that's all they can afford.

    I'm always amazed at how many guys (average joes) I know who vociferously defend the salaries these guys get. It's like the public has been completely brainwashed into rationalizing the pay as deserved. There's always the rub that "well if the players didn't get it the owners would". Which totally missess the point. It's like the public has been tricked into supporting the old "catch 22" instead of just recognizing we're all getting gamed.

    There's plainly a lack of balance in play here and one could argue both the NBA and the players are victims of their own success. The NBA and the players operate in a vacuum because the government protects their collusive industry. The players benefit from the same. For me, it's hard to get my arms around the defense of either party in this coming labor fiasco.

    I think Stern has done a good job in general but with the industrys infrastructure designed the way it is, needing so much in the way of corporate clients to survive, and the economy likely in stall mode for another decade it's going to be tough sledding.

    If you can get past the short-sightedness of the questionably designed infrastructure model you have to give credit where due. Stern was the only one looking far enough down the road (save Isiah) to know the NBA had to control any real viable player options once the next CBA rolled up to the door. Hence the formation of the NBDL which was designed and implemented to de-fang the open marketplace.

    The hard truth is the players of the last decade and their union essentially agreed to let him and the NBA stack the deck against them. They did it for the money. They sold out their successors.

    So while the developing story line is somewhat interesting, it seems clear the stage is/was set for the current players and the union to get a good waxing and honestly, it's pretty hard for me to feel their pain....
     
  4. Woody

    Woody All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    A good post, G-Man.

    I always appreciate hearing from the guru of Maggie Valley, and Lake Junaluska.
     
  5. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    Ilgauskas Trade Highlights Salary Cap Quirks - Off the Dribble Blog

    Ilgauskas Trade Highlights Salary Cap Quirks - Larry Coon NY Times

    "Cleveland traded Zydrunas Ilgauskas to Washington on February 17, as part of a three-team deal that also brought Antawn Jamison to the Cavs. Ilgauskas was included in the trade for financial reasons only, with his salary providing the ballast needed to make the trade legal. Sure enough, Ilgauskas was waived on February 25, without playing a single game for the Wizards.

    While Ilgauskas was free to sign with any team but Cleveland as soon as he cleared waivers, he chose to wait the required 30 days and rejoin the Cavs. On March 23 he signed a contract with Cleveland that will pay him $925,000 for the remainder of the season.

    Ilgauskas provides an excellent case study for a number of salary cap nuances."

    Ilgauskas Trade Highlights Salary Cap Quirks - Off the Dribble Blog - NYTimes.com


    (Hey Woody, thanks and hope all is well with you and yours..)
     
  6. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    Cap Happy

    Cap news enlivens free-agent chase
    Larry Coon - ESPN.com

    "A cap as high as $56.1 million comes as a complete surprise. It still represents a drop of about $1.6 million from the current cap, which translates to a 0.5 percent drop in revenues from last season. But it makes a huge difference for teams that were hoping to use the huge 2010 free-agent market to reverse their franchise fortunes.

    Teams that were a little short of being able to offer the full maximum salary to premier free agents will now find themselves with sufficient cap room to do so. Teams that were resigned to letting go of their own free agents to create cap room now have the ability to hang on to a player or two -- signing a free agent and preserving some of their depth at the same time.

    Even the capped-out teams benefit from today's announcement. With a higher-than-expected salary cap comes a higher-than-expected luxury-tax threshold. Teams firmly entrenched in luxury-tax territory, such as the Los Angeles Lakers, just saved about $3 million. These teams might now be more willing to spend their midlevel exceptions this summer."

    With the NBA salary cap projected at $56.1 million for next season, several teams gained flexibility in their possible offers to free agents - ESPN
     
  7. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    Re: Cap Happy

    The problem is that these news give to players union false illusion that they can actually demand from owners better deal during new CBA negotiation process. The only result will be - players fall harder.
     
  8. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    "Treble" this..

    NBA cap projection could spur collusion charge
    Adrian Wojnarowski Yahoo Sports

    "With the NBA projecting a much more robust salary cap for next season than initially expected, the Players Association plans to investigate whether the league engaged in collusion, a source close to the union told Yahoo! Sports on Friday afternoon.

    After the NBA released a memo last July that warned teams the salary cap for the 2010-11 season could drop as far as $50.6 million, the union countered the projection could be a mechanism to scare teams from signing free agents.

    “A memo of this nature can have a chilling effect on the market for free agent and rookie signings,” Hunter said last July. “If it later turns out that the league did not have a good faith basis for making these projections, the NBPA will pursue all available legal remedies, including a treble damages claim for collusion.”

    NBA cap projection could spur collusion charge - NBA - Yahoo! Sports
     
  9. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    One Mans View..

    Through Mark Blount's Eyes
    Mike R. WWW.Twowolvesblog.com

    "Confused, you take the contract reluctantly. "What's the catch?" you ask the seemingly retarded manager. Even you know the company is operating at an annual loss of $20 million per year.

    "Ha! That's the beauty of it!" He lights a stogie. "Your new contract is legally binding. No matter your performance. No matter how well the company performs. No matter how your group performs. Your salary will remain the same for the next six-years. In fact, it will increase each year. Then, we will re-evaluate your future compensation. It may decrease in 6 years because you will be a bit uglier then, but we will probably give you a smaller extension because you may still have something left in the tank."

    Aghast, you take the contract and sign it immediately.

    This exact thing has happened to the following players, who were once considered "good looking" by an idiot GM: Mark Blount, Brian Cardinal, Darko Milicic, Marko Jaric, Jerome James, Marcin Gortat (I still cannot believe this one), Hedo Turkoglu, Erick Dampier, Chris Andersen, Samuel Dalembert, Sloth from Goonies (seeing if you are paying attention), Troy Hudson, Trenton Hassell, Mike James. Ok, catching on yet? Making the connection? Some of these guys still put up numbers, but none are game changers by any stretch of the imagination. What is more terrifying, the salaries these boobs make for role-player level production, or that about half of these clowns have played for or were signed by former Vice-President of Basketball Operations Kevin McHale? Not the point of this write-up, but still quite profound. And all of these players either had one good stretch, were "good looking" in that they were 7-feet and once blocked 3 shots in a summer league game, or in the case of Gortat, Turkoglu and Cardinal, were just too damn sexy.

    Now let's bring this concept home. Time to get philosophical."

    Through Mark Blount's Eyes
     
  10. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Re: One Mans View..


    Scarcity is a great thing if you happen to have some of the scarce stuff.
     
  11. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Re: One Mans View..




    :darkoalert:
     
  12. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    Inside out plays

    NBA Labor Negotiations Breakdown
    NBA economic experts analyze talks between the player’s union and owners
    Kyle Stack - SLAM Online

    Which group of player contracts is giving owners the most heartache?

    "Surprisingly, it might not be the superstars.

    “They don’t really like the middle class,” Coon said. NBA owners can stomach the game’s best players making mega-bucks. What they can’t rationalize are the players who earn contracts such as the mid-level exception (five years at $33 million last off-season). Since there are more middle-class players than those at the top of the salary pyramid, it’s likelier for poor play from the middle-class players to have a bigger cumulative negative effect than bad years from the top-paid players. (Of course, the O’Neal or McGrady contracts are obviously still debilitating.)

    In the case of these negotiations, though, it might be more sensible for the owners to go after the highest-paid players since there are fewer of them.

    “You have 400 players voting on the ratification of a new agreement,” Coon said. “Let’s say there is a lockout and it goes a few months. The players will start feeling the pinch because 375 of those guys can’t afford to go through a year-long lockout; they need that income. So what if the owners float a proposal that gives the players the means to get back to work, but it really screws the maximum salary players?”

    While the higher paid players obviously wouldn’t like being singled out, Boland pointed out that their astronomical salaries could set the stage for strife within the player’s ranks once the labor talks become more heated later in the year. The players would have to band together to form a strong front against the owners but their own feelings about each others’ salaries could prevent the millionaire players from making the billionaire owners seem like the bad guys.

    “The problem I see for the players in doing that is they would need a strong basis of internal cohesion,” Boland said. “They’ve always been too jealous of each other to make that work.”

    So the owners might just go to the lower-class, and possibly middle-class, players to get a deal done.

    “The owners could float a proposal that they know is going to appeal to enough players to ratify an agreement,” Coon said."

    SLAM ONLINE | » NBA Labor Negotiations Breakdown
     
  13. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I feel bad for the middle class players that will have to scrape by making only $6 million a year.
     
  14. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    how will they be able to put food on there familys tables? I bet they will have to pick up off season jobs to make ends meet.
     
  15. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Re: Inside out plays

    Unfortunately for the owners, every middle-class player thinks they're just one good season away from being an upper-class player. And most of them are right given the way owners toss money at mediocre guys.
     
  16. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    Union delivers CBA proposal to NBA according to reports
    Associated Press - July 3, 2010

    "NEW YORK -- The NBA players' union has sent a proposal for a new labor agreement to the league, an official with knowledge of the bargaining process said Friday.

    The proposal was delivered Thursday, although no details were provided by the official, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the sides aren't commenting publicly.

    The NBA has been awaiting a counterproposal from the players since All-Star weekend. That's when the league's initial proposal was taken off the table after what union executive director Billy Hunter called a "contentious'' 90-minute bargaining session in Dallas.

    The union said the league's proposal called for reductions in the length and amount of contracts, which would become only partially guaranteed. It also sought to greatly reduce the players' share of basketball-related income from the 57 percent they currently receive.

    The league hoped the counterproposal would come quickly, but Hunter made it clear that was doubtful. He said owners wanted a new deal in place before this summer's highly anticipated free agency period opened, but the players were in no rush because they contend the current system is working.

    "It's going to be incumbent on the owners to try to convince us of the urgency of getting a deal between now and July 1,'' Hunter said after the All-Star weekend session. "And the way they started, they made a false start and so what they did was they kind of set things back a bit.''

    The current deal expires June 30, 2011.

    Though both sides believe they can reach an agreement that would prevent a work stoppage, they are far apart on many issues. They will meet in the coming days to determine next season's salary cap, but there are no bargaining sessions scheduled."

    Lost In The Off-season Hype
     
  17. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Union disputes NBA's figures, ready for lockout - ESPN

     
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    The best way to do it from the players perspective is to base it on gross revenues (maybe a 5 year moving average). It is the hardest number for the owners to manipulate. Also, it doesn't punish the players if the owners don't know how to run a business properly.

    Also, that is the one stat that the players have the most control over. If they are entertaining to watch, revenues go up. If they give half effort, fans quit showing up.
     
  19. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    That is what it is now isn't it? the news conference that stern gave was talking about how the teams are spending alot more money right now on promotions and such. That is why teams are "losing" money. Yes they have tons of money coming in, but there spending alot more then they used to.

    My impression from listening to the "owners side" I tend to go along with it, though I have yet to hear the players side say anything but, "the owners are at fault for paying" Would like to hear the players idea's.

    Maybe I am missing there side but I don't remember hearing anything from them but saying the owners numbers are wrong. (which ok they maybe wrong, but how are they coming up with there numbers? the owners have the books not the players)
     
  20. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Yes, and I think it is correct. Maybe the % of revenues needs to change, but it is still the only sane figure to tie salaries to from the perspective of the players.

    No net profit or net revenues figure would ever be reliable.
     

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